Hi everyone,

Just a simple question. On the basis of PURE class fighters, which do you think is the better SOLO class? A level 40 bezerker or a level 40 kensai? Disregard dual classing.

Which of these do you think would win in a 1 to 1 battle with both wielding two powerful weapons and the bezerker wearing the best armour in the game (white dragon scale i believe).


Bezerker has the advantage of dual wielding with a high armour class and being able to throw axes/daggers with the aid of armour and a shield. Kensai's can only gain armour bonuses through single weapon style and also by using the same items bezerkers can. On the other hand the speed and combat bonuses of the kensai means it can erradicate most enemies far quicker. ... but is this trade off worth it and is it survivable as a solo character.

Experienced players. Please enlighten me on your views lol [img]smile.gif[/img]

thanks all!

their basic AC might not be *that* different though kensai with shield amulet and the +2AC bonus would have a base of 2 iirc and could wear the ring of protection+2 to give 0 - so that's what your comparing your bereserker's magical armour too - damage type modifiers will make a big difference though *but* the kensai will have a bigger THACO advantage than the berserker will have an AC advantage so if it's pure hacking them my instinct would be kensai as it'll hit faster and harder on each hit and hit more often

the weapons would decide it though - celestial fury, flail of ages etc. have effects that can immobilise the opponent - the question then would be whether berserker rage ability protects against weapon effects - personally i'm not sure if it does

ps: kensai's can throw axes and daggers too - it's their loophole through the no-missile restriction

EDIT: in terms of a solo character i think the berserker is more managable and would lead to fewer re-loads - the bereserker rage protects you against a load of spell effects that are game-ending for a soloist - of course both are *possible* to solo

[ 01-31-2006, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Armen ]

I must be missing something here, because I don't see how it can be close. Number of attacks is the same. Berserker probably has 8 or so AC better than the kensai. Kai isn't going to matter much - high level characters do so much damage that the base weapon damage is pretty trivial. But there is one advantage that the kensai has that will swamp everything the berserker has going for him. Kensai get +1 to hit +1 damage per level. The +13 to hit more than makes up for the lower AC of the kensai, but really, these guys are level 40 - each will hit every time. They get exactly the same number of attacks. But the kensai has +13 damage per hit! +2 from rage is much much smaller.

Simple question really. If two character hit 95% percent of the time, have exactly the same number of attacks, and the same number of hit points, but one does and extra 11 points of damage per hit, who do you think will win?

You're asking two different questions:

"which do you think is the better SOLO class?"

Berserker - as Armen notes, the Berseker's rage protects from most solo-ending mind spells. There's also more versatility with the use of missile weapons (e.g. Arrows of Dispelling, Kuo Toa bolts, etc.).

"Which of these do you think would win in a 1 to 1 battle"

It depends upon the level and how far they're standing apart ...

... One failed save vs. Kuo Toa stunning bolt from the Berserker, and it's game over. [img]smile.gif[/img]

With that said, at high levels, even with 'rage', the Kensai probably would come out on top for the reason ister has identified. I'm sure that there's a cross-over point in levels in terms of the most likey candidate however that would take into account the THACO and AC bonuses from the Berserker's rage and the Kensai's innate skills.

I think the Kensai would win in a 1 on 1 battle, but the Berserker is an overall better, more powerful, and more survivable character, especially if you're playing solo.

I'd second Klorox. Berserker rage against magical enemies makes them far better all around characters. In a 1on1 melee fight, Kensai may hold their own, but overall, against different types of opponents, a berserker is far more versatile.

If you're playing the game, or just generally role playing, the relevant questions are not along the lines of "Who would win head to head at level 40?", but more like "Which one would do better in a room full of vampires at level 12?"

Of course, the answer here is the Beserker, although I'm sure there are other game-based instances where the Kensai would do better - I just can't think of one at the moment.

I do agree, but I think there are (a few) game situations where the kensai is better. At the highest levels (like 25 or more) your saves get to be good enough that rage is less of an advantage. And against the very toughest melee opponents (who will hit almost all the time regardless of AC) the kensai has a slight edge in that he can kill it a little quicker. Still the kensai is very much a specialist, the berserker has huge advantages against a lot of different opponents while the kensai has a slight edge against a few less dangerous opponents.

As to a specific in game example - I think the kensai will do better against a bunch of unsupported fire giants when both are level 30. But either should romp there [img]smile.gif[/img]

I think the kensai is more effective as a party member. The thing to remember is the kensai is a very specific role: to deal damage. Kensai(s?) are pretty one-dimensional in nature, which is why so often they are dual-classed to improve their combat flexibility. Berserkers are a better solo class, because of their ability to tank/absorb damage and resist status effects. A kensai should be used less as a main tank, and more as a sniper, causing huge damage while staying out of the line of fire.

I completed a solo elven fighter in BG a while ago and he has the following stats. I wouldn't make him a bezerker because i feel that elves should always be standard fighters or kensais. Dwarves are better for bezerkers.

Is this characters stats good enough to survive the game as a SOLO KENSAI

stats:
str 19
dex 20
con 18
int 8
wis 8
cha 10

abilities:
to hit 3
damage 7

AC: 6

HP: 98

THACO: 14

___

i finished the game in BG using a long sword single wield quick changing between a long bow. It was very effective both ranged and melee.

I would use the grand mastery adjustment patch because i feel that it is legal as it is per the D&D rules

Should have no problems there. You may want to end up artifically boosting your WIS with potions for better saving throws, but you should be okay. Keep in mind that if you do take a kensai, you will not have access to bows, crossbows or slings, so that may modify your decisions. You should either dual-wield or use two handed weapons, since you can't use bows anyway. Kensai should be geared towards being able to dish out as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. As such, look for weapons and items that boost your Attacks per Round, your damage, and elemental damages and special effects are always helpful in a solo game.

[ 02-04-2006, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: True_Moose ]

Personally, I'd drop the strength down to the minimum. Before long, your character will be wearing a belt of strength, which means you have completely wasted 6 points. However, if you put those 6 points on wisdom, as True_Moose pointed out, you'll get better saving throws, and there is no other device that will give you any sort of permanent wisdom boost. Of course, you can keep guzzling wisdom potions, but you can guzzle strength potions in just the same fashion.

To my mind, the superfluity of items that will set strength to a plus 19 value, and the total absence of anything that will do this for any other stat, make strength the last thing I ever bother putting stat points on, for any character.

thanks for the feedback.

I wasn't aware that wisdom increased saving throws. What i may do is modify my character before importing him and give myself

int 3
wis 18
cha 5

or

int 5
wis 18
cha 3

this isn't really cheating because none of these stats would have effected my game when playing BG.

I am considering a single wielder of ++ in katanas for celestial fury in the early game and eventually +++++ longswords mixing between blackrazor and answerer to ware down the enemy, celestial fury simply to stun and then the longsword +5 to kill. keepign in mind i am using the grand mastery mod to max my attacks.

To clarify, according to the manual, high wisdom confers a bonus to saves against magical attack. Debates exists as to how well this works in practice, but it still is more useful than strength.

Personally I wouldn't let Int drop below 6, just so you can survive more than one hit from a mind flayer.

Cha can be dropped if you're powergaming, just remember to put on the right ring before buying or selling.

If I were powergaming a fighter, I'd say the two stats to max out are Dex and Con. Then up first Wis and then Int. You might even be able to identify a few things, and you also get a few better conversation options. I'd minimise Str and Cha and remedy it by artefacts ASAP - I think you can buy the Mauler's Arm immediately you get to the Copper Coronet, for a about 2000gp.

yes, but i completed BG1 with him and there ARE no belts in there. I will simply use throwing daggers on mind flayers so int is not important and as long as i have max dex con wis and str the other stats are irrelevant.

Can anybody let me know what they think of the single weapon style build that i proposed:

I am considering a single wielder of ++ in katanas for celestial fury in the early game and eventually +++++ longswords mixing between blackrazor and answerer to ware down the enemy, celestial fury simply to stun and then the longsword +5 to kill. keepign in mind i am using the grand mastery mod to max my attacks.

1) I'm almost certain that wisdom has no effect on saving throws. Any such effect absolutely doesn't show up on the character record, and having played low and high wisdom character I don't think I've ever noticed a difference. I'm almost certain that wisdom is of no use at all to a fighter (other than some dialogue choices of course). I wouldn't build my charatcer around an assertion in the manual that doesn't appear to have any other backing.

2) You can obviously get a strength belt very early on. But this uses up the belt slot that could be put to better use (+3 AC vs slashing or crushing or piercing is very useful for a kensai early on, and the inertial belt is very handy later on). Ultimately you can get Crom Fyr for any character which doesn't waste a slot. I'd much rather take the hypothetical saving throw loss (which as I've said I don't believe exists) than the very real loss of the belt slot.

katanas and long swords are fine as weapon choices - you will need something that does blunt damage against some enemies though and, co-incidentally your only source of level drain protection for a solo kensai is a mace (of course you don't need a * in mace to wield it if you're happy with 1 attack per round . . )

in general i think 1WS is a mistake for a kensai - more attacks per round equals more attacks that your kensai damage bonus gets applied to - off-hand weapons that increase your attacks per round tip the balance even further as do the immunities you can cover with weapon combinations

once you get greater whirlwind then a couple of stars in 1WS will get you a slightly increased chance of a critical and a tiny AC bonus but until then . . .

i shall leave the last word to Miyamoto Mushashi

Students of the Ichi school Way of strategy should train from the start with the sword and long sword in either hand. This is a truth: when you sacrifice your life, you must make fullest use of your weaponry. It is false not to do so, and to die with a weapon yet undrawn.

It is of course a personal judgement call, but to my mind, Crom Faeyr uses up one of the most useful slots of all - weapon/shield.

So for example, if I were going all the way through to the end of TOB, I'd rather finish up with

Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
Flail of the Ages +5 (main hand)
and Axe of the Unyielding +5 or Darksteel Shield (off hand)

rather than
Belt of Inertial Barrier
Axe of the Unyielding +5 (main hand)
Crom Faeyr (off hand)

ymmv

WIS has no effect on saves.