Ever notice that there really isn't much difference between a 20th and 30th level Fighter? How about a Mage? A Cleric? A Monk?

It's kinda sad, but the only big difference is a few High Level Abilities. The point of this thread is to determine which class (or multiclass) character(s) go the best without hitting a level of "diminishing returns."

My initial thought is that Fighters (and their kits), Thieves (and their kits), Rangers, Paladins, Barbarians and Monks hit this "diminishing returns" level earliest. The warrior classes don't advance in THAC0 after level 20 or 21, they don't really gain too many more hit points (although it is more than any other class), by this level you're probably specialized in any and all weapons you'll ever want to use, and there's only so many "Greater Whirlwinds" one can use. The saving grace of a Paladin is the ability to summon a planetar, which is extremely powerful and helps the good cleric of the party by saving him a 7th level spell slot.

Monks reach a certain level where their magic resistance stops getting better. At that point on, they're very boring. They just don't really change at all.

Thieves still advance in all of their skills, but as seen by people who use Imoen, you don't really need any higher than 100 in locks and trap removing skills, and the other abilities are so high it doesn't matter either. Aside from some cool (or cheesey, depending on how you look at it) trap-related HLAs, and UAI (which everybody seems to take), there really isn't much in the way of High Level Abilities there either.

I guess Clerics, Druids, and Wizards (and all of their kits) are marginally better than the warrior classes because they will earn some extra spell casting slots. The HLAs of the priestly spellchuckers are pretty boring, save for "summon greater elemental" IMHO. And after passing level 14 as a druid (difficult to do if you're using Jaheira), the druid gets a bunch of bonuses, but the best of them are the added spell slots.

The arcane spellchuckers (Wizards and Sorcerers) get some cool HLAs, like the extra spell slots and improved alacrity. Aside from these, they still reach the same level of diminishing returns that all of the other classes do.

My question to you all is this: What class(es) don't hit a level of diminishing returns? Are there any? If not, what classes take a long time to hit that level? I'm thinking that the classes that take their time to hit that level will end up being the most interesting to me.

The only thing I can think of is using multiclassed characters a lot. There must be some other way.

This thread proves to me that, by ToB, the characters who are multi-classed (and dual classed as well) are more powerful than their single-classed counterparts.

There are exceptions to this rule, though. For instance, Keldorn can not be multi-classed, and he's extremely powerful.

A Fighter/Thief multi-class is very powerful, but isn't as good a tank as a single-classed Fighter, since a F/T is not likely to be wearing heavy armor. So, while the power level might be called into doubt, a multi-classed character is undoubtedly more versatile.

Cleric/Mage multiclass is definitely the gift that keeps on giving. A little weak at first, but quite viable in a party for healing, buffing, back-up maging. Somewhat of a challenge to solo at first, but levels up quickly and soon becomes a real powerhouse. At a certain point the additional cleric levels become redundant, but since you continue to add very valuable mage levels, it definitely takes a little longer to hit the point of diminishing returns.

As has already been stated, higher level characters DO get less 'bang for buck' when they level up. The single saving grace for most high level characters is the HLA proficiency pool - but are these always worth staying on the straight and narrow for?

(the answer is no, I'm not going to debate why, simply put a powergamer can get far more out of a dual classed character)

I will also state that a DUAL class character is ALWAYS better than a multi-class character of equivalent level once the original class abilities have been reactivated. On a simple level: hit point, weapon proficiencies (mmm grand mastery) and kits.

Generally:

+ Always dual at a high level. As stated above, the principle of diminishing returns means that the best point to dual is between level 20 and 26, we maximise the potential of both classes to the fullest by doing this.
+ Re-roll until you get good stats, never cheat the ability scores in.
+ If you don't get maximum HP on level up, reload (or install the ease-of-use component that does it for you).
+ Always plan your proficiencies and thieving abilities in advance - do not waste points (e.g. if you are dualling to a fighter, there is no point using your planned final weapon as your first class - wasted points. E.g. 2. You know that your characters dexterity is going to increase by one point in the future, do not have your hide in shadows at 150% and let your dexterity move it upto 155%, use 5 of the % points in another skill and let the dexterity bonus increase the ability). ALWAYS PLAN AHEAD!!! (Pff noob powergamers [img]tongue.gif[/img] ).
+ Choose complimentary dual classes. Some combinations work better than others.
+ Alignment really should not matter to a properly powergamed character. 90% of the time you will be choosing the EVIL path later in the game to get the better abilities that path offers - classes with alignment restrictions should usually be avoided (exception Ranger > Cleric).
+ If you are planning on dualling to a mage character, save ALL of your scrolls until the point of dual classing. When you dual simply scroll them all and dance with joy as you hit level 11.

The BEST dual class combinations (in no particular order are as follows):

Cleric > Mage : Massively powerful character. Able to take advantage in the early game with a high Wisdom score (typically 21 on import from BG1) and LOTS of spells. The Mage transformation can easily be offset by the scribing of scrolls, typically levelling up to level 11 as a mage simply by scribing all of the scrolls you have retained prior to the dual class. We get spells all of the way up to L9 as a mage, and the lesser number of L9 spells is somewhat offset by the characters high wisdom score and the potential for Wish abuse. Did I mention HP? Better than regular mages as well :D (EDIT: DUH!!!)

Assassin > Fighter (25/27 or 24/28): This character is an excellent warrior for those of you wishing to play a silent killer style fighter. Gets benefits from the Assassin Poison Weapon ability before his Assassin class re-activates. Typical Assassin > Fighters need both high strength and dexterity scores. This character is amazingly well suited to dual wielding Katanas (backstab x7 with base d10 damage) - do not put proficiency points into the weapon until you become a fighter, NEVER waste proficiency points. We also get to choose the Assassination and Use and Item HLA's.

Kensai > Mage (21/22, you knew this was coming): A perfectly complimentary class. By dualling at level 21 we get to take double advantage of the Kensai Kai/Weapon proficiencies (they go up every 3 levels). We get to choose a couple of fighter HLAs and get grand mastery, we also get the bonus of a very low base armour class for a mage. Oh, how could I forgotten to have mentioned LOADS of hit points. A HUMAN fighter > Mage at maximum level making the right selections throughout the game can have upwards of 250HP, slightly scary when you think of him casting a certain level 6 spell that improves his fighting ability...

Ranger > Cleric: The primary stated bonus for this dual class is to open the druidic spheres of magic up for the cleric class. The cleric aspect benefits from the fighter key benefits, notably weapon proficiencies, THAC0 and hit points. Because the Ranger gets dual wielding FREE, we save 2 proficiency points right away to pump into other weapons. Bear in mind that we should choose blunt weapons for specialisation so we arent dissapointed when the cleric weapon restrictions are in operation (maces and flails work nicely).

OK, I'll shut up for 5 now, thoughts on that?

What makes a dual-classed R/C better than a multi-classed Cleric/Ranger?

1) Potential to choose a kit
2) Greater hit points (Ranger class first obviously)
3) Weapon pro... scratch that one ;)

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

1) The Kits aren't as good as you might think. I know some of the Ranger kits can NOT dual into Cleric (try it yourself).

2) Those greater HP's amount to 9 total. Hardly a difference maker.

I'd say that you're better off multi-classing this combo, just for the fact that you'll always have access to the abilities of both classes throughout the development of the character. I would find it hard pressed to find a certain amount of XP where a dual-classed Ranger-> Cleric is significantly more powerful than a multi-classed variant.

1) Which kits? Do tell [img]smile.gif[/img] Test it yourself :D

2) In short, the greater HP is *probably* less than 9 (in the calculations below I have erred on the side of muchos generosity toward the multiclass and have rounded up most of the HP calculations in their favour). As this thread is based on powergaming, the character has just been imported from BG1 with 19 constitution.

As a Ranger/Cleric dual class, the character is able to achieve L22 Ranger/24 Cleric.

HP as follows:

9 x 10 + (9 x 5) = 135HP
13 x 3 = 39HP
Total 174HP

The Ranger/Cleric multiclass is able to reach L23/23 at 8 million experience points. The method for calculating multiclass HP is somewhat different.

Essentially for each level between L1-9 we get:

Fighter level 5HP per level (45HP)
Cleric level 4HP per level (36HP)
Plus 5HP Con bonus x 9 (45HP, may be less?)
Total: 126HP

Then we add:
Fighter 14 x 2 (28HP, may be less?)
Cleric 14 x 1 (14HP, couldn't be less ;) )

Which gives us a multi-class total of 168 vs 174HP. Difference of 6HP.

Upon investigating, I am DISSAPOINTED to reveal that there is no difference in the number of clerical spells between levels 23/25, meaning I can't use that as an additional bonus for the dual classed character (does tie in with the diminishing returns theme of this thread).

Ultimately though, greater HP and the ability to select a KIT swings makes the dual class the better choice for a POWER GAMER.

No problem. I'll test now, and I'll use the CTRL-8 option during stat rolling to ensure that the character will have all needed stats for dual-classing.

Here are my results:

Ranger (no kit): Can dual-class as usual
Archer kit: Can not dual-class
Stalker kit: Can not dual-class
Beast Master kit: These guys can dual-class to the Cleric class

I love hearing a true Power Gamers POV on this, but I disagree. I like the Cleric/Ranger multi-class better than the regualr dual-class, if only for the reason that I like having access to all of my characters' abilities for as long as possible. The Beast Master kit isn't as good as the Ranger class without a kit, IMHO, especially if considering dual-classing to the Cleric class (a class that allows the wearing of heavy armor, better weapons, and summon various creature spells).

BTW, I didn't believe that an Archer or Stalker couldn't dual-class into the Cleric class at first, until I checked it out for myself. My game has the Baldurdash fixpack and the official patch installed.

Short term pain for long term gain.

Any chance you could make a Cleric/Ranger multiclass and check how the 5HP Con bonus splits upto level 9 and then after that level with the fixed 3/1HP advances (slowly increase the experience and try one class at a time, go through a few levels to try and get a firm answer).

I don't have a computer with BG installed at the moment to test it out on :(

I can tell you that it should work that you'd get 3 bonus HP from the 19 CON on the Ranger level-up, and 2 bonus HP on the Cleric level-up.

Reaching level 23 as a Cleric (as noted by you above) will take a really long time (almost the whole game) to reactivate those Ranger levels. And since you still haven't shown any good reason to choose the dual-class over the multi-class, I'll hold onto those ** in any weapon, and free ** in two-weapon fighting from the start. Additionally, I like the idea of continually being able to choose those Greater Whirlwind High Level Abilities. The only Cleric HLA that is any good is that Summon Deva one.

Go on, test it for me.

Also, I almost always solo BG now, so levelling up is not a problem.

I'll concede that dualclassed R/C's are better than multiclassed ones if dualled at the highest possible level (22/24 at the ToB XP cap), due to more HP and in my opinion a better split of HLA's. (R/C 5/4)

However, doing so you'll spend half the game playing a singleclassed cleric and ranger, not an R/C. It's not my cup of tea, but then I'm no powergamer either. Also, a dualclassed C/M, even dualled at the highest possible level, wont get any Cleric HLAs. That may not be a huge flaw, but in my opinion, part of the coolness of C/M's is combining cleric HLAs with CC.

[ 03-15-2005, 05:00 AM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

High-level dual-classes generally produce the most powerful characters for the, say, 7.5M - 8.0M XP range (and hence the most powerful end-of-game character), but I prefer limiting my dual-classes to be able to be fully functional in both classes for over half of the 89K - 8.0M range. That precludes getting two sets of HLA's (since HLA's for all classes begin at 3.0M XP), but I can live with that.

Planning such a high-level dual-class certainly does eliminate the "diminishing returns on high-level characters" problem, though... when you do regain your 20+ level 1st character, the jump in power at that point is pretty obscene.

Dual-classes definitely get incredible advantages over multiclasses in the proficiency realm.

As far as multiclass goes, the one multiclass with the best potential in the game is wasted.

It breaks my heart that the Fighter/Thief/Mage can only cast L8 mage spells - I'm satisfied that the Fighter and Thief aspects are adequate, its just a let-down with the Mage part of things.

Agreed that it is disapointing, but wouldn't a f/t/m with lvl 9 mage spells be a tad on the overpowered side? I mean, time stop, assassination, and improved haste = mucho grande backstabbage with no personal risk.

Not as if you can't cast Projected Image, use timestop from a scroll and use Assassination anyway, but it'd still be nice to have 'natural' L9 spells.

*sighs*

To be honest, I wouldn't know how to. I also do not solo, so hitting the XP cap is a problem. With a 5 person party in SoA, and a 6 person party in ToB, I still don't plan on having my characters hit the XP cap.

In my book, Multiclasses are more powerful than their respective Dual-classes, simply because of HLAs. Take the Ranger/Cleric: It gains HLAs only a little slower than the Ranger->Cleric (two classes, each levels up half as fast, and Rangers are slower than Clerics), but each time, you get to choose from either pool. So, while the Ranger->Cleric is choosing things like Earth Elemental Transformation and Mass Raise Dead (and, after they've already been chosen, nothing at all), the Ranger/Cleric is chalking up some more Hardinesses and Greater Whirlwinds.

Multiclasses are always at the top of their form. None of this "now we have to drag Jan along while we wait for my Level 25 Assassin to reactivate."

True, some of the kits, especially in combination with other classes, are insanely powerful: Kensai-Mage, Kensai->Thief, and Swashbuckler->Fighter are just plain nutso. But when you consider that Dualing means you must be Human, whereas Multiclasses must be demihuman, you soon realize that you're taking a kit and sacrificing good Saving Throws.

sixofspades, i agree with you for the most part. The only time i really think dual classing is worth it is if you do it imediately. for instance, a cleric with 7 levels of berserker (for the rage/immunities) or ranger (for the druid and cleric spell lists)is a whole lot better than any kit the cleric class has. plus, you will have more hitpoints.

i know you can have a better char. if you dual class later on, but i am an impatient guy.

Try a wizardlsayer - diminishing returns from the word go...

A F/T is a better tank than a regular fighter, b/c he gets to use UAI and load up on stuff with physical damage resistance like Jan's armor and so on.

Wizard Slayer can theoretically be cool if you alternate between regular darts (speed factor 2, so fast as lightning) and Crimson Dart +3 (speed factor 0, booyah!) With 3 base attacks per round you can get 4 ApR right from the beginning of the game (or 5 with GM patch/fix/hack). Use Crimson Dart against your typical spellcaster, and use the regular darts against mages with PfMW to paralyze them. Against regular enemies you can try Dwarven Thrower +3 or Boomerang Dagger / Firetooth.

Against people with Improved Mantle or PfMW + are immune to normal weapons, you can use Fire Seeds + GWW [img]smile.gif[/img] I think Improved Irenicus would go down really easily with that combo. No matter what defenses he uses - PfMW, Improved Mantle, invisibility + SI:Div + SI:Abj + Prot. from Fire - you can hit him and inflict spellcasting failure. In late game K'logarath + GWW does a ton of damage.

Not so with ToB. ;)

How so? What ToB benefits to Wizardslayers get? Hopefully it's more than a 1% magic resistance per level?

On F/T's and Swashbucklers, the Swashbuckler is far better, IMO. When I compared my Fighter(21)/Thief(25) to my level 36 Swashbuckler, both with similiar stats and parties, my Swashbuckler was far better. I had to reload at the end of ToB quiite a few times to finally beat the Boss with my F/T. He couldn't even solo the boss one-on-one. My Swashbuckler not only soloed the boss while the other party members were chatting, but I only needed to reload once. He showed higher return than my F/T did, they even had the ssame HLAs.

I'm bumping my own thread. [img]smile.gif[/img]

It's over a year old, and I'm finally actually going to persue it's goal. I figure new input would be great.

Multi-classes also benefit from a bit of oversight on the part of the development team.


That is, the HLA pools for both classes are joined. This means that certain feats are cut out, and also, that you can take a FIghter HLA on a Cleric level, etc.


Used this little fact to my advantage to front-load Fighter HLAs up to Smite on my Fighter/Cleric. Getting Smite early just enhanced the deadliness that was Dual Wielding Crom Faeyr + Improved Haste + Nasty Cleric Buffs. (7 APR with ensured crits on the first round of Smite/Use of Critical Strike = devastating.)

In fact, that's how my party WASTED Draconis and Improved Abazigal. Fighter/Cleric used to be second banana in the kill ratio, now he was the undisputed king. (I had a Cleric/Mage in the back for chucking heals)


As for Dual-Classing, I had a Wizard-Slayer -> Thief. Turned out nasty powerful once he got UAI and was able to bypass the Wizard-Slayer item restrictions. (He wore the +MR items, plus dual-wielded Fflar's Foebane and the Holy Avenger Bastard Sword with GM in B Swords, with the GM patch of course) He wasn't able to absorb damage (better than a normal thief), but he was able to dish it out. Kensai probably would have been nastier but Kensai doesn't have defenses vs. magic.

Wizard Slayers are pretty weak by themselves, but if you take a high level Wizard Slayer and dual class to a Thief, your character will be quite powerful.

Many people will tell you that a Kensai > Thief is the best class out there, blah blah, but I'll go with the Wizard slayer > Thief any day.

Here's the reason: Once you get the Thief High Level Ability Use Any Item, ALL Wizard Slayer drawbacks are erased. You can use any item in the game now, have a very good Magic Resistance, and just kick some major butt.

Imagine a Wizard Slayer > Thief weilding Carsomyr with Grandmastery in Greatswords. You dish out huge amounts of damage, and spells just don't hurt you. Wow.

EDIT: Neo the Warrior Cat said basically the same thing. I didn't realize this thread had a second page. [img]graemlins/stunned.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/pimpser.gif[/img]

[ 07-18-2007, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Klorox ]

Whohoa. Holy thread necromancy, Batman!

Like the people above me, I'd take a Wizard Slayer/Thief over a Kensai/thief any day.

Magic resisting items + Wizard Slayer innate resistance = Both final fights being a breeze :D

I've stopped viewing thread necromancy as an annoyance, when you consider the glee with which we roar up to deliver disapproving quips about thread necromancy. Especially musical Lovecraft-related quips.

Is thread necromancy any worse than starting a brand new thread about the same topic, and subsequently recieving replies like "this topic has already been discussed" and "do a search"?

Especially considering I started the original thread as well. ;)

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/498...ncervf3.th.png
I agree with Illumina. Mocking thead necromancers is just too much fun. We need more of them.

[img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img] alright then:
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...hreadnecro.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...ral/Thread.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ecromancer.png

Wow. Those were amazing. :D

Give me a couple of minutes and I'll make some new ones out of bootleg Call of Cthulhu cards I have lying around somewhere.

edit:
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1525/necro2lh1.png

[ 07-21-2007, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Iron Greasel ]

LOL, thanks. I like the first the best (Creature: Moron). :D

IG, I've never played Call of Cthulu, so I guess my personal preference is for magic cards. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Klorox: I don't play it either, that one I found with a google image search. I wish I knew what all those numbers and symbols mean.

So, does anybody have anything to add to the actual topic (which is why I bumped it in the first place)?

I don't think so :D