<font color=plum>I am thinking about creating an assassin to dual to another class. I have an assassin I'm playing now, but I'm not interested in dualling him because of the way his game has progressed.

I originally wanted to take the assassin up to Level 21 in order to get the maximum Backstab multiplier, but I was afraid it would take too long to regain my abilities if I decided to dual that late (I also wanted to get the "UIA" Ability). But I am playing a solo Skald right now and he has already made it to level 24 after just doing a few of the quests (Trademeet, Circus, Haer'Dalis & Astral Prison, Umar Hills and Cult of Unseeing Eye). I know a solo assassin would gain levels even faster and would get his HLA's sooner, but I don't know if I would even have enough experience to regain my assassin abilities if I dual.

I plan to dual to either a figher or mage - but these two classes require the most experience to gain new levels. Still, if I could gain my assassin levels quickly enough, I could dual over to fighter or mage in time to take on the tougher quests (like Planar Sphere and De'Arnise Keep).

So tell me what you think. Would I even have enough XP available to regain my assassin abilities in SoA? As far as I know, I DO have the XP Cap Remover installed. Also, WHICH class do the members here think would be best to dual to? All suggestions are welcome.</font>

<span style="color: lightblue">There should be enough XP for your second class, yes. But be sure to leave some of the easy quests for after the dual class, to help you up to a more competent level.

As for which class, I would say Mage. They will both be extremely powerful, but a Thief -> Mage ("which spell should I use here - should I try to backstab with invisibility, or should I perhaps launch a fireball?") will offer some variety in tactics than a Thief -> Fighter ("Go invisible. Backstab the strongest. Wack, wack, wack, Strong Monster: Death").

<font color=plum>I have to admit I was thinking about the combination of "Improved Invisibility/Backstab" myself. Hmmmmm...if I use IMPROVED Invisibility, would I be able to backstab multiple times, since the target still couldn't see me? I believe the game says that you become "partially visible" when you launch an attack, but your opponent still can't target you with spells because you are still invisible.

You're right that the fighter class offers less tactical options, but it also offers a better chance of surviving those first few quests after I dual.

Another question. If the thief has a Str of 18, does it get modified to exceptional strength if I dual to fighter??? I'll check that one out myself later by creating a "rough draft copy" of the assassin and dualing immediately in the Chateau.</font>

<span style="color: lightblue">I don't think you could use Improved INvisibility to backstab multiple times, no. After you make that first attack, you are visible, just untargetable. But, it depends entirely on how the game handles backstabbing. It may check STATE_INVISIBLE (like See(O:PLAYER*) would), or it may check STATE_INVISIBLE and STATE_IMPROVED_INVISIBLE (like Spell(O:OBJECT*, I:SPELL*SPELLS) would). If the latter, you will be able to backstab multiple times.

As for the strength issue, I doubt it would convert it. You don't reallocate stats at dual classing, and so I would assume that they aren't even touched past determining what you can dual to.

Try the combination of Mislead/Backstab. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Mislead can potentially take all the fun out of the game since 99% of the enemies in the game cannot see through invisibility.

Even with your Skald you can cast Mislead a little away from your enemy and go whack at him while he wonders what the hell happened. ;)

And if you happen to be able to backstab too that's one big cheeseburger. Heh, but it's fun too in some way. [img]smile.gif[/img] A solo F/M/T can wipe out the whole Sahuagin city with one Improved Haste and one Mislead. :D

You can continously backstab while under the influence of Mislead. Particularly evil if you are a Assassin->Mage with Poison Weapon.

An Improved Haste + Time Stop + Mislead + Backstab combination is a virtual annihilation of the target or targets, save for immunity to backstab.

<font color=plum>Hmmmm....so far, nobody seems in favor of dualling to a fighter (or are we just exploring the different possibilities if dualled to a mage?).

I created a practice assassin and dualled him over to fighter immediately. <font color=lightblue>LennonCook</font> is right, the stats don't get reallocated - so I still just have regular "18" Strength.

One thing that DID surprise me were the alignment options. I was allowed to choose ANY alignment except for Lawful Good. So I could actually choose to play a Neutral Good or Chaotic Good assassin. I know that seems like a contradiction, but we actually had a discussion about this among my PnP group a while back - and one member pointed out that a "good" assassin was possible. It would be similar to a member of the Special Forces in the military - or perhaps a sniper. They are trained to "take out" enemy targets as efficiently as possible. And even though they are considered the "good guys" to us, there is no denying that there primary purpose is to "kill" - and their target (or friends of their target) most likely DO consider them "assassins".

BTW, <font color=yellow>Leslie</font>, you are right - Mislead has become one of my Skald's favorite spells. It is a bit cheesy, but I'm playing him solo, so he needs all the "tactical advantages" he can get. ;)

<font color=red>Dundee</font> - that definitely sounds like a "deadly combination" of spells and tactics. </font>

The "special forces" style assasin sounds like quite a good idea. I am running several games atm, but half gave up on my assasin, and might restart for that purpose, she isn't very far AT ALL. I hate having to come up with reasons for myself as to why i took that quest when i'm evil...

Mislead is beyond a 'tactical advantage' Cerek [img]tongue.gif[/img] ;)

I'm beginning to notice you're becoming more and more cheesy lately. Why is that? You're letting the game get the best of you? Or are you becoming a bit weak due to you age ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I wouldn't know the first thing about dualing possibilities, but I would like to see an Druid -> Assassin (or the other way around). I don't know if it's possible, but it would sure make a nice combo story wise. Imagine a powerful assassin who knows ALL about poisonous herbs. Gives some nice background ideas about his Poison Weapon ability.

Your two duallig options of course opens up two completly different aspects of the game. But I would not favour one to the other. They are both very capable in their own way. So as I see it, all it comes down to is what you like. The sneeky, brutal and extremly deadly weapons of the cloaked fighter/thief. Or the equally sneeky, as times as brutal, and unique possibilities of the stealthy mage/thief.
I've beat the game with both and found them both very fun, in their own respective ways. It's not an easy choice, so maybe a F/M/T is the best candidate;)

Note: Druids can only dual with Fighters. No Druid->Thief or Thief->Druid.

A F/M/T is versatile, yes... but lacks certain skills that an Assassin dual can have. One of the factors for choosing an Assassin is that they have Poison Weapon( and I don't just mean arrows ;) ) and a much better backstab.

~~~~ ~~~~

An Assassin->Fighter will have a better base backstab than the Assassin->Mage due to one reason. Grandmastery. An A->F can wear leather armour with impunity as well. An A->M will have to stick to Elven Chainmail or Robes if he/she wants to cast spells. An A-F levels up faster too, and Poison Weapon used in conjunction with Greater Whirlwind is just sick.

Personally, I would choose the A->M, but that is due to personal bias, as I like to cast spells. The A-F is not without its' advantages though.

<font color=plum>Another good example of a "good" assassin would be the <font color=white>Punisher</font> from Marvel comics. He is considered an "anti-hero" because he just kills the bad guys instead of trying to catch them.

<font color=yellow>Wolverine</font> is another example. The writers have toned him down a bit over the years, but when he first joined the X-Men, he gave them fits because he was willing to kill anybody they went after instead of just capturing them. They had a hard time controlling him. He also got his initial training as a member of the Canadian Covert Operations. He was trained to infiltrate and kill the enemy single-handedly. So that kinda ties back in to the Special Forces theme.</font>

[ 12-13-2004, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: Cerek ]

<font color=plum>I have another quick question about allocating my Thief Abilities. I've seen other threads stating that the game basically takes the average between your HiS and M/S scores, so you don't need to build BOTH of them up. Just raise M/S to a certain low level and then pump the rest into HiS. Since I will be relying heavily on my ability to blend into the shadows, would somebody mind repeating how these points should be divided and how much should be put into each one.

BTW, I know that many members also say Pick Pockets is a useless score, but I plan on using that to aquire a lot of my items early on. The rest of my points will be going into Set Traps, since I will be setting up as many ambushes as possible.

I have Ease of Use installed, and that eliminates a LOT of the traps in the game...so I won't have to worry about those - at least not early in the game.</font>

Why did you install "No traps" component? I mean it takes all the fun out of the game. Put more points into M/S then in HiS.

<font color=plum>For one thing, I didn't realize it turned off ALL the traps in the game. I thought it just turned off the ones in the Chateau. But when I re-installed BG2 and all the Mods on my primary PC, I saw that particular component and considered turning it "off". Since I'm planning to play another assassin, I may go ahead and do that. All of my other games are advanced enough that the traps shouldn't be a problem.</font>

<font color=plum>I've always liked a healthy dose of <font color=yellow>cheese</font> in my games. My first BG2 character was a Wizard Slayer and I found a wonderful item for him at Arundor's Abode. It was an item called <font color=red>Charon's Claw</font> and consisted of a sword coupled with a pair of guantlets. The sword could cause disease with each hit, but I actually didn't use it very much. The guantlets were the real treasure. They automatically turned ANY spell below 6th level back onto the caster. So - not only did this make my Wizard Slayer basically immune to all spells below 6th level - it also threw the spells back on the caster. I had the best time watching the drow clerics in the Underdark fry themselves with their <font color=yellow>Flamestrikes</font>. Now, most people (including myself) would say that item is WAY too powerful for the game. I agree for most classes, but I felt it was PERFECT for the Wizard Slayer class - because of what the guantlets did AND the fact that Wizard Slayers are so restricted in the items they can use to begin with. I would not use the item for any other class.

Another thing I've seen members tell newer players is that they should play through the game WITHOUT <font color=yellow>cheese</font> first - then add cheesy items to their second or third games if they really want too. BULLOCKS!!! You want to increase the difficulty of the game AFTER you become familiar with it - NOT on your first run. Heck, you might as well tell them they should play their character solo FIRST, THEN add NPC's in their second and third game if they need to.

I find I use a lot LESS cheese as I play more. I created the typical kensai (with multiple stars in katana to dual Celestial Fury and Sanchu) and planned to dual her to a mage. But then I added Kelsey as a Romance option. Since he is a sorcerer, I've decided to leave the kensai in her original class. The katana still "fits" the class since they are both oriental in origin. But since then, I've created a male kensai that I plan to dual to mage, and I've given him grand mastery in the staff (which also fits the kensai class - since the bo staff was originally a martial arts weapon).

As for the <font color=palegreen>Mislead/multiple Backstab</font> combo - I don't know if I will use it or not, since I haven't even decided if I'm going to dual to a mage or a fighter. The idea of being able to cast <font color=cyan>invisibility</font> on my assassin is very appealing. But like <font color=red>Dundee</font> pointed out, Greater Whirlwind with Poison Weapon is just INSANE!!! So both class options offer a lot of appeal. However, since I will be going solo, if I DO decide to dual to mage, I most likely WILL use the <font color=palegreen>Mislead/multiple Backstab</font>. I do not feel that <font color=palegreen>Mislead</font> is <font color=yellow>cheesy</font> when playing solo.</font>

i say it's not cheesy if you leave the clone in sight of the bad guys - otherwise it's not 'mislead' it's 'undispellable re-newable invisibility'

I am currently running a Assasin->Cleric. A little vigilante justice. It is so far a lot of fun, slightly restrictive. But fun to rp, and is making Tactics all the much tougher.
Considering the two choices I would choose the A->M. Just personal preference.
However it is your game and therefore your choice, go with what sounds best to you.

<font color=plum>hehe....Assassin/Cleric...sounds fun. Since I'm planning to take him to a fairly high level before dualing, I'm sure I'll have a better idea of which class I want to choose once the time actually comes. I will have a better feel for his personality and which path he would want to pursue. I do like the possibilities offered by the different spells available to the mage, but I also like the better THAC0 offered by the fighter - which means my backstab will strike more often.

I finally decided on a name for my assassin last night. His name will be <font color=silver>Talon</font> and I'm seriously considering either a CG or CN alignment instead of the standard evil one. I might pattern him after the <font color=white>Punisher</font> - an assassin dealing out retribution to evil-doers. [img]graemlins/blownup.gif[/img] </font>

I've notice a fair few refrences to those comics now, Cerek, guessing you're a big fan? I've never read any myself, but i DID watch spiderman when i was younger [img]smile.gif[/img]

[EDIT] pardon my offtopicness.

[ 12-13-2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: TheGodThatFailed ]

Yeah - I hear his departure made the other guy in the Canadian Covert Operations really sad... [img]graemlins/evillaughter1.gif[/img] Thanks for the laugh, Cerek.

<font color=plum>Yeah, I'm a pretty big comic fan. My mom used to buy me a bag of 3 comics every weekend when I was little. I really liked Superman and Batman back then (I created a Jester and named him Joker). I enjoyed the comics in the bag, but it was almost impossible to actually get any consecutive issues. I didn't start THAT until college. I stayed at school one weekend, got really bored and went to visit the local comic shop. That started a loooong journey into comic-book collecting. I started with <font color=red>Daredevil</font> and quickly expanded to <font color=yellow>X-Men</font> and <font color=lime>The Hulk</font>. I collected most of the different "X-Titles" through the late-80's and early 90's. I also have all of the first-print titles from Image comics.

My favorite heroes have always been <font color=red>Spiderman</font>, all the various <font color=yellow>X-Men</font> (Longshot was one of my favorites, as was Shatterstar), and the <font color>Hulk</font> (for sheer raw power).

I have a total of about 3,000 comics (rough estimate) and I have several different titles mixed in the collection. The ones I've mentioned make up the largest portion of my collection, but I've read numerous titles over the years.

I've taken several of my ideas for AD&D from comics over the years. I even sat down one night and converted several key villains to AD&D stats for a high-level game (level 20+) I was planning to run. The characters I chose to create for the AD&D game were <font color=white>Spiral</font> (easily the nastiest of the group because of customized swords I gave her), <font color=orange>Juggernaut</font> (whom the group actually managed to defeat), <font color=deepskyblue>Bullseye</font> and <font color=yellow>Sabretooth</font>. I spent a lot of time converting their stats to AD&D, and then the group ended up only facing <font color=orange>Juggernaut</font>. We never finished the dungeon, so they never met the rest of my baddies. [img]graemlins/verysad.gif[/img] Still, it was a lot of fun and I have the basic stats for them if I ever do get a chance to put them in a PnP game in the future. ;)

BTW, I also liked the <font color=red>Spiderman</font> cartoons and I even have a few episodes on VHS for my boys to watch. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] </font>

Hehe, nice. I also intend to run a game where i creation a group of people, but inspired by musicians. I've never fineshed making soundsets and portraits though :D

[EDIT] Back to the topic at hand, I think you should run assasin to mage. I just think that'd be more interesting, and would make a nasty character over all.

[ 12-13-2004, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: TheGodThatFailed ]

And no one has mentioned... Energy Blade/MMM + IH and PW yet (toss in Time Stop for added fun)! I'm very surprised. [img]smile.gif[/img] Poison Weapon has the unique feature that it will poison, even if the target makes a save! . If the target makes his save, the damage will still be intense, but it gets even better if the target doesn't make his save. Since the poison stacks, you want as much ApR as possible. And the stutter-effect will take down any enemy that isn't immune to Poison.

Also, there's the traditional backstab thing that you've all beaten to death. [img]tongue.gif[/img] I would definitely go with an A/M, dualling at level 15/16. Why? That's the last poison 'level up' for the Assassin, you still get a healthy BS (who really needs x7? =/), and the experience required is minimal. Sure, you'll miss out on HLAs, but the game gets a bit too easy if/when UAI is picked, and it takes too darned long for me to get to 3 million experience.

[ 12-13-2004, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

Tell me something: does Poison weapon work with Fireseeds or not? It was once just a theory but I don't remember whether it works or not? That would be something to cheese with. :D

Fireseeds works with Greater Deathblow, that I know. But Poison Weapon [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] I wouldn't see why not...

Haven't tried that combo yet, trying to avoid to much of the 'fromage du jour'. Althought I don't see why it wouldn't work. Might have to come into play in the underdark, who knows maybee sooner.

I do: Because there's no such thing as a Druid/Thief, that's why not.

[img]graemlins/doh.gif[/img] Of course. I'd like to see it (I mentioned the Druid/Assassin for roleplaying reasons as well)

<font color=plum>Returning to an earlier topic of discussion, I saw a perfect example of "good assassins" yesterday in a movie I watched. It was the movie "Hero" (starring Jet Li) and it showed how individuals with good motivations could still be considered assassins.</font>

Uggh, I hated that film :D

<font color=plum>Well, I think my assassin has definitely decided to dual to a mage when the time comes. I am currently trying to kill that damn otyugh in the Sewer Room and it is just eating me alive. I seriously regret sending Imoen on ahead. She could kill this thing with just a couple of simple spells. Meanwhile, I'm having to run in, Backstab (which I shouldn't even be able to do, but I'll take what help I can get) and then run out and HOPE I make my save vs the Poison from the Dolorous Decay. I can handle the other effects fairly well, but the poison eats up about 3/4 of my hit points each time - which in turn eats up my precious healing potions.

I'm thinking that Improved Illyich and company are gonna be a breeze compared to this monstrosity.</font>

<font color=plum>YEAH BABY!!!! I FINALLY took that ugly beast down. After countless tries, I finally managed to get a max hit on my backstab.

I had hit the otyugh once already and managed to save against most of the effects from the Dolorous Decay. I quickly ran into the corridor leading to the library, waited for the effects I didn't save against to wear off and went back into stealth mode. I snuck up behind the beast and did hit it for <font color=yellow>80 points of damage</font> from my backstab!!! WooooHoooo!

I took it from "Barely Injured" down to dead in one shot. [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] I honostly wasn't expecting that. I was hoping to do enough damage to get him down to "Injured" or "Badly Injured" and make my save vs poison again so I could sneak back in for a 3rd try before he regenerated too much. But the next thing I knew, he fell and a huge swarm of flying maggots surrounded me (yuuuucck).

After defeating the otyugh, I searched further into the Chateau. Looked through Johnny's bedroom and avoided the encounter in the portal room (for now). Met the dryads and then found the Mistress' Bedroom. After setting off the alarm, I grabbed the loot and ran back to the Sewer Room to give myself as many escape routes as possible. Good decision. Two clay golems came lumbering into the room.

I was already in Stealth Mode, so I hit the first one with a backstab, killing it with one shot. I then had to run for my ever-loving life to get away from the second one. I ran down the corridor that led to the cages, then continued running into the room with the Mineral Deposits in it. I ran around the big crystal in the middle of the room and back into the room with the big machine in the middle of it. This had been my favorite "ambush spot" against the duergar. I would run into that room, go around the corner and Hide in Shadows. It worked just as well on the Clay Golem and another Backstab eliminated his threat.

After that, it was back to Irenicus' bedroom and into that darkened room to the side. YIKES! A duergar mage, two fighters and 5 war dogs. I used arrows to pick the dogs off one by one. Then attacked the mage. I dispelled his first <font color=silver>Stoneskin</font> and managed to resist most of the spells he cast at me. Then I started pinging him with arrows again to dispel his second <font color=silver>Stoneskin</font>. It worked, but I paid the price. I got pounded with two <font color=lime>Acid Arrows</font> and two <font color=red>Magic Missile</font> spells. YOUUUCH!!!

But once his second <font color=silver>Stoneskin</font> went down, he was mine. I hid in shadows, snuck in behind him, and chunkified him with one shot. His two fighter buddies came after me, but a long game of Hide and Seek/Backstab left them dead in their armor.

I snuck into the library and saw this Illyich dwarf, along with some of his colleagues. This fight might not be as easy as I expected it to be after all.

BTW, two MORE duergar spawned in Johnny's room while I was attacking the mage in the portal room. I finally decided that was just TOO ridiculous and used CNTRL-Y on them. It's bad enough these jokers spawn after every rest, but when they start popping up in the middle of an ongoing battle, that's the time to stop even TRYING to roleplay. That crap just ain't right.</font>

i've always fancied this as an idea and started one last night as an alternative to the assasin->fighter i'd been mulling over - i see what you mean about 'restrictive' the one attack per round would limit you just wading in and smacking people around i'd have thought which probably isn't a bad thing

a little bit of speculative testing suggested that dualling after UAI not only allows you to carry on using edged weapons but also retains your proficiency points for when you re-activate the assassin - very nice . . . very nice indeed [img]smile.gif[/img]

UAI stays active while the assasin class is inactive too, i notice, which would be very helpful to a low level cleric i'd have thought in a 'wand of cloudkill' kind of way ;)

the swashbuckler gains a +1 to hit and damage every 5 levels. If we were to dual him to a fighter at level 10, would he keep his +2 hit and damage by adding it onto the fighter's stats either immediately or when i re-activate my old class? Or would the fighter class stats override this bonus and give me the normal stats that a thief/fighter would have dualed at level 10?

<font color=plum>Yeah, I realized last night that, if I play my assassin high enough to get UAI, then I could most likely wear the elven chain mail from the Astral Prison while casting spells as a mage. Very Nice. Don't know if that would be a better advantage than Robe of Vecna or not.</font>