yello all,
I was wandering if my level 10 thief, freshly finished bg1 would solo irenicus's dungeon ok?

and do you have to be level 13 thief for back stab damage multiplier of 5? Cos I want this guy to dual to a mage or sorceror... so I want the best thieving abilities possible, but I also want maximum backstab and not too long leveling up for mage. because im powerhingry for both class abilities... :D

In short, yes, you do need to be L13 for the x5 backstab multiplier.

Or, you could choose the Assassin kit and get to L21 for a x7 multiplier.

All depends how patient you are for your abilities.

If you want to dual class to mage, do NOT choose assasin unless you have ToB installed

Okay...here's some clarification.

1) Yes you have to be a level 13 thief to get backstab multiplier of x5.

2) It's debatable whether you'll have enough skill points for FT, OL, HiS and MS by level 13. However if you're going to dual to mage, you can forgo HiS.

3) You cannot dual class to a sorceror.

4) Only choose the Assassin kit if you *really* want to wait until level 21 for the x7 backstab multiplier.

5) If you dual-class at that high of a level, especially to a mage, there will be a HUGE lagtime until you get your powers back. This could present a problem when soloing.

6) You will find that memorizing spell scrolls will be the key to getting your EXP back as quickly as possible. Remember, you can memorize multiple copies of a spell by memorizing, then erasing it from your book, then memorizing it again. Use your significant amounts of excess cash to purchase all the spell scrolls in Amn.

7) If you do go the Assassin route, make sure you have the EXP cap remover portion of the Ease of Use mod installed.

at level 13, I would think my thieving skills would be fairly profficient to survive the game all the way through including tob? My character has 19 dex so I get a few bonuses there...

lets work this out... Do you get 20 points or 25 points a level? I think that works out at roughly... 250 odd points at the beginning of SoA...?

Surely I would have over a 100 in pick pockets, find traps, open licks, hide in shadows and move silently? or at least a 100. I'm sure as a dualled thief mage, I can wear pick pocketing gloves and boots of stealth.

In short, would a level 13 thief get me through all of ToB too, or should I consider taking this thief to level 15?

at level 13, I would think my thieving skills would be fairly profficient to survive the game all the way through including tob? My character has 19 dex so I get a few bonuses there...

lets work this out... Do you get 20 points or 25 points a level? I think that works out at roughly... 250 odd points at the beginning of SoA...?

Surely I would have over a 100 in pick pockets, find traps, open locks, hide in shadows and move silently? or at least a 100. I'm sure as a dualled thief mage, I can wear pick pocketing gloves and boots of stealth.

In short, would a level 13 thief get me through all of ToB too, or should I consider taking this thief to level 15 or higher?

You would need 100, preferably something like 125 in Find Traps and Open Locks.

If you do not plan to use invisibility spells, you'll need have ~125 in HiS. However, if you are going to use invisibility spells (and you should), you won't need any at all.

Dump everything else into MS.

PP is useless.

The thief class gives 30 points a level to spend. Assassin kit only gets 20 points/level.

What level is Imoen? She is a thief/mage dual class and I've used her as my exclusive theif all the way through ToB and I have no problems. I think she is something like a level 7 thief, level 8 mage so a level 10 thief should be enough. Granted you'll have to use thiefing potions (At least I did with Imoen) for some things. Also you could use the knock spell to open chests.

<span style="color: lightblue">Forget completely that the Hide in Shadows skill exists. There are no disadvantages - and a few advantages - to putting all hinding skill points into Move Silently. The only problem is that there is an effective maximum value at which point you will need to put points into HiS to improve it further. But if you plan to dual class, and especially if you dual-class early, this problem shouldn't present itself to you.

No. Pure (unkitted) Thieves and Swashbucklers get 25 points/level.
Bounty Hunters get 20 points/level.
Assassins get 15 points/level.

The primary advantage of the Assassin is not the x7 Backstab, but their Poison Weapon ability. Performing an early Assassin->Mage Dual seems pretty silly: Way fewer Thieving points than a regular Thief, no enhanced Backstab, and lousy THAC0 to actually perform the Backstab with.
But when you see the Poison damage inflicted when you combine Poison Weapon with Energy Blades on a Greater Malisoned target, it all begins to make sense.

I still prefer Swashbuckler->Mage, though. They're the best archers to be found outside the Warrior classes, and I like the idea of a lock-pickin', super-sneaky, sharpshootin' Mage.

right thx for the tips guys. so far I think I've roughly decided what to do..

Is it true that the game actually works out the average between MS/HiS for when you want to go stealth? And in thereafter only uses MS? Becuase that would make HiS fairly pointless and therefore- as said earlier- I should forget about it completely?

I think therefore to be a competent thief- I would need roughly the following:
FT/OL - 125
PP - 100 (backed up with gloves of pick pocket)
MS - 180

I say so high on the MS because doesn't HiS start off around 15 or 20- therefore making the average about 100? That one really needs clearing up...

And people say PP is useless but I know for certain I will use it- I did with Immy on my first time through SoA and I got some beastie items (corse I had to use potions of master thievery). And I will need it for stealing many many scrolls for when I dual to a mage so that I level up really quickly. Backed with glvoes of pick pocketing 100 should be ok shouldn't it? And a few potions if needed... I can always keep switching between bracers of archery or something like that...

Anyone care to share any opinions about that? I would be most grateul for everyones infinite wisdom :D

You need at LEAST 200 PP to be consistently successful. Even higher is better. I ran one game with 3 thieves. One of them dumped almost exclusively into PP, got it up to around 250, but still got caught sometimes.

Actually, you only need about 85% in Find Traps and Open Locks. There are a few things that will require a higher score (going over 99% is completely pointless), but they're so rare that it hardly matter. Besides, it's not as if you don't have any spare Potions of Perception.

Really, are you sure? I've never heard that... thanks!

I don't need 200 in PP surely? Besides I can save before I PP someone and if I fail I can try again.

So I just need to stack PP, MS and FT/OL.
FT/OL needs to be about 100 max.
PP- 100 again
MS- 180+

<font color=plum>Yes, you will need around 200pts in PP to be consistently successful. Now you can use potions to get there temporarily if you wish, but if you're gonna be stealing stuff, then an average of 200PP is about what you will need. Some merchants are a bit easier (like the ones in Waukeen's Promenade and the Shadow Thieve's Guild). Those with nicer items are much harder (Bernard in Copper Coronet), and some are practically impossible (Ribald - Adventurer's Mart). I know from experience that it takes very close to 200PP to steal from Bernard. Even then, he will "catch" you about every 3rd or 4th time.

You've been given plenty of advice. Now it's up to you to decide whether you'll actually follow it or not. ;) </font>

Meh, I snagged Ribby's ring with around 200 PP.

Yes, you DO NEED 200+ PP.

Another thing to remember is that you really don't need more than 100% average of MS and HiS. You can only hide when out of line of sight of an enemy anyway. A lot of the equipment you will find and use gives bonuses to either or both of MS and HiS.