I don't know how many of you have ever charmed this familiar, but it is quite enlightening when you look at the resources available to him:

He has got the spell of maybe a 9th level mage
He is very hard to kill, is very proactive in battle
And he has great (initiates) conversations....well taunts...even better!

Now I have been looking for a familiar mod, but cannot find one...so any help in this would be great

Getting back to pookey, now a familiar like him would be a whole lot better than the default...I mean lets face it, what is the point of having a familiar with lockpicking ability of 15%!

Oh yeah, Pooky. Some mephit type familiar hanging out in the Den Of The Seven Veils?

For a second there I thought you were saying he has 9th level mage spells - heh.

I agree wholeheartedly, the Familiars suck. The game should just admit that they're nothing more than a way to sneak in 12 extra hitpoints, and darn near useless for anything else. The Cat makes a good scout, and a free casting of Invisibility 10' Radius never hurts, but in all other matters, the Familiars are garbage. And whose bright idea was it to give the only Familiar with a decent Pick Pockets score to the Lawful Neutral alignment?!?

The game really needs a Familiars mod. I wish I had the coding capability, but all I can do is design. If I Had It My Way:
1) PCs of any class can use Find Familiar scrolls, although only Mages & Bards can learn the spell.
2) When you cast the spell, the game looks at your class, alignment and level(s) to determine which Familiars you get to choose from (depending on those stats, 2 to 6 Familiars will be open to you).
3) Different Familiars do different things: Some make good substitute Thieves, some cast useful spells, some are decent fighters. Not all Familiars can fit in your Backpack, though.
4) If your Familiar dies, you do not permanently lose a point of CON. Instead, you take a substantial penalty to your EXP, with the amount varying with the level of your Familiar.

:D Rangers of chaotic good alignment get a hamster but incurr an intelligence penalty

Fair enough too - If you WANT a hamster you DESERVE an intelligence penalty LOL

I see on the TeamBG site that sometime back, the nuts and bolts workaround to get a decent familiar was put in place, but I cannot see that it has been progressed.

I do agree with a lot of what you are saying Six, apart from allowing all classes to own one.

All the literature agrees that it is just magic users that ever have familiars - I am not much of a purist, but I do think that this should be a hard and fast rule.

About losing constitution, now this is a biggie and should only happen if the familiar was very difficult to kill, say with either high hit points, or more realistically a capability to automatically jump into your inventory once the familiars hp reach 10%, noting that if he was hit hard at 11%, then he could die

Anyway many ways to configure it, but the one that I would particularly like is not to lose anything if he dies.

Instead it should cost you to build - conjure your familiar - say losing one or more levels depending on what your current level is.

Correspondingly your familiar could not level up

Instead you would have to euthenise him and decide if you wanted to lose levels as the cost of getting the new improved version

Well, there is a bug (don't know if it's been fixed by anything yet) that allows for any class to get a familiar.

have a potion in inventory, and the familiar scroll. That's all I'm saying, mostly cuz I can't clearly recall the rest.

<span style="color: lightblue">Firestormalpha, the "Potion Swap tactic" is well known, and well documented. It also cannot be fixed by anything but the Official Patch (and I'm almost certain that Bioware no longer support BG; and Interplay is basically dead) because it is not a "bug" as such, but a downright exploit of the engine.
Six, your idea is very interesting, and I think I'd like to code it... but, with a few minor changes (some I'd like to discuss, others are simply unfeasable under the Infinity Engine). Check your PMs.

I like the ideas for familiars in this thread (esp. Six and MR's).

Every class, I agree, but *only PC*. As it is now, only PC Mages can FF. Six's modification would let my PC Ranger or Cleric have a magical pet regardless (at one point I had to do the potion trick for my cleric). I think that would be cool, in game-terms (especially for soloists). It can be justified and come with risks/trade-offs. MR is of course correct it's against the D&D/FR tradition for a non-mage to FF, but I kinda just think of it as your B-spawn having a magic animal companion. Not that non-mages need +12HP, just that the little animal adds to the game, and it seems reasonable to have one pet in the party.

I'd have no problem installing a Familiar mod that varied away from the original rules creatively, so long as it was limited enough to be somewhat balanced.

Non-pc mages should have familiars...Jan should have an animated turnip...

Jan should be able to summon Turnip Golems at will. :D

Mild Weimer-mod spoilers...
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If you get the Sola mod, Jan gets a familiar...

[ 06-26-2004, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Illumina Drathiran'ar ]

I agree with Find Familiar being raised above a puny Level 1 spell, with at least 5 scrolls of it scattered about the place. I would exalt it up to, say, Level 7, with scrolls of it being precious and rare. As for having it contingent on the Mage stronghold....I agree with you in spirit, but as the Mage stronghold itself has some issues to be worked out (for instance, Fenris Melkior never got it because he accurately roleplayed his alignment and showed those sanctimonious Knights of Solamnia what to go do with themselves), I'd like Familiars to be a bit more accessible.
As for any class getting a Familiar, I'm going to stand by that idea. Does the idea of a Ranger and his Wolf stir no ideal of romance within you? How about a Thief instructing his Rat to enter a home through the drainpipe to open a locked window from the inside? How about a Fighter tossing Lilarcor or Ras into the air to battle by his side for a while? A Cavalier forming a bond of brotherhood with his valiant steed? (Okay, so BG can't handle Horses, that ain't my fault.) As far as I can tell, the only class for having a Familiar doesn't make good roleplaying sense is the Cleric, since their Holy Symbol serves a rather similar purpose, and perhaps also the Wizard Slayer.

I was thinking of something along the lines of the way Spell Immunity was implemented: Cast the spell, get a choice of 8 things. Or perhaps Wish would be a better parallel, since it looks the caster's stats.

Cats and Ferrets are all well and good for the more mundane tradesmen of the adventuring sphere, such as Thieves and Warriors. The more exotic beasts--for example, Golems and Demons--would naturally fall to the Wizards.

Well, I would doubt its uncodability, but of course I'm saying that sight unseen, so I'll have to take your word for it.

How about something like the following:
1) After the PC hits 1 million EXP, they recieve (probably through a specific quest) a scroll customized to their class and alignment. (For a total of 10 classes x 3 alignments = 30 scrolls)
2) Casting the scroll causes a blurry shape (Air Elemental) to appear in the distance and approach you. Before you can clearly identify its shape, it calls out to you--it wants to know what it is. Your conversation response will determine the form of your Familiar. (Each of the 30 Familiars spawned by the 30 scrolls will have a unique set of conversation responses. For example, a Neutral Druid might see a Bear, a Spider, a Troll, or a Bird.)
3) At the time you cast the spell, the Familiar checks the PC's level and chooses the appropriate "level" of Familiar to become (similar to the way that NPCs adjust themselves to the average party level when they first join). For example, Evil Wizards would have the "You look like a Demon from here," conversation response, which could get them anything from an Imp to a Baalor.

Note that saving the Find Familiar scroll for later, in order to get a really good Familiar, naturally implies a considerable wait, during which the PC's Alignment might change. What happens if a PC Fighter recieves the scroll when he's Chaotic Good, what happens if he reads it after becoming Neutral Evil? Complications, complications.

[ 06-27-2004, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

<span style="color: lightblue">Those definately sound like good ideas and now that you mention it I do definately like the idea of another class' animal companion [img]smile.gif[/img] But one little change may make it more codable, and more fitting with the spirit of the game (although not it's implementation) - a familiar is earned rather than cast. The familiar comes to the person, not the other way around. And rather than an Air Elemental being talked to, how about you find a familiar at a certain time (perhaps as a random encounter?), and you get to "Accept or Reject" it? To use your example, an Evil Wizard might find an Imp, and kill it/torture it/ignore it, and might later find a Balor and attempt to bind it to himself. A Ranger on the other hand, might find an injured wolf in the woods, and may put it out of it's misery or try to nurse it back to health. This would solve the problem of alignment changes, too - if you change alignment, your familiar might not like how you're treating it anymore, and leave you.

The only 2 here that I'd agree with are the Ranger & his Wolf (the closest approximation being the Beastmaster having the Find Familiar ability) & the Cavalier & his horse (which, IIRC, was implemented in PnP, but as you said, wouldn't work in game).

The others, though, come down to "just 'cause you can communicate with it doesn't make it a familiar." I think of a familiar as a 2-way communication, where the Mage is able to see out the familiar's eyes & they both gain benefits. A Thief & his Rat is just a guy with a neat pet by comparison & practically anyone can have Ras dance for them.

I tend to think of familiar-like creatures being the Harry Potter type creatures - owl, cat, rat/ferret, with Imp & Pseudo-Dragon being the exotic ones. You can summon a more powerful demon to serve you for a time, but not for the lifetime of service that goes along with a familiar.

As far as building a Golem, that would make for a cool add-on to the Planar Sphere - after all, you already build one - getting it to follow you around shouldn't be any more difficult that changing the item files for the Clay Golem Manual.

I like the idea in general, but I'd limit it to Mages (including Sorcerers), Druids, Rangers, Barbarians, & maybe Bards & Paladins. Fighters, Clerics, Thieves, & Monks seem too un-arcane (er... close enough [img]smile.gif[/img] ) to ever have more than just a pet.

There also need to be some serious downsides to any class's familiar getting killed to make the "no Familiar" option seem somewhat appealing.

- Imrahil

<font color=plum>I like the idea of Rangers having a familiar/pet. I also think a Druid should definitely have the chance to gain a familiar. I'm not as convinced that a barbarian should be able to get one. Historically (in the game anyway), barbarians have depended solely on their own physical abilities to meet any challenge.

I can actually accept a Wizard Slayer getting a familiar - especially one that either increased his/her Magic Resistance OR could Dispel Magic.

While our entire PnP group agreed that familiars as written by Gygax were useless and a far greater hazard than boon, I did create a Chaotic Good mage specifically for the purpose of gaining a pseudo-dragon as a familiar/pet. However, I did NOT gain him through the spell. He is simply a very close pet. I don't gain any benefits from him, other than his surprise attacks on enemies.

Come to think of it, a pseudo-dragon would be a great familiar for a Wizard Slayer, since they can go Invisible and attack with a poison sting (which would eliminate any further spellcasting).

I really liked the "special" familiars (pseudo-dragon, faire dragon, imps, mephits, etc) and I think these are the types of animals that should be available.

I do like the idea of wolves or bears for rangers and druids, but I don't see any real justification for clerics, fighters, or thieves to have them. Bards - maybe.

Well, I look forward to seeing what the two of you come up with for the mod.</font>

Maybe NWN familiar system should be implemented? Just tone it down a bit, and do not allow to change familiars. After all familiar can gain exp, since that it is above average in intellect.

My familier helped me finish ToB. invsibility on all of us and we could sneak

TOB SPOILERS
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Into the monk's stronghold and live.

Wizard Slayers are not fond of anyone who casts Invisible.

Pseudo-dragons are fic.historically the companions of spellcasters. I would think a Wizard Slayer is a Pseudo-Dragon Slayer.

Yeah....I'm not too sure just what kind of creature a Wizard Slayer would befriend on that level, that would fit his persona. A Golem would be nice, what with their Magic Resistance, but the fact that they're created by Wizards pretty much tears that idea. Same goes for animated weaponry such as Ras.

A hound.

How about a sheep with wool of antimagic so he can knit himself a vest of wizard boffing?

The sheep would obviously have sharp teeth to send into battle against Iron Golems.

I would also suggest that fire does extra damage against the sheep familiar. Furthermore, mint sauce would cause fear in the semi-intelligent sheep familiar.

O_o

[ 07-10-2004, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Dace De'Briago ]

The dog works, but I kind of want to keep the canine Familiars reserved for my hypothetical Wild Man kit. Maybe Warriors could get low-level Dogs and Druids could get low-level Wolves, but only Wild Men get the really cool ones.

Like Dundee said a hound, but: A War-dog - and I believe you can buy doggie armor for wardogs.

I'd like to note that I do not whatsoever support dog-fighting or training visciousness IRL, but in fantasy game terms I think it would be cool to have a pit bull with chain-mail and a spiked coller. When that mo-fo gets up in a wizard's robe, believe me, he ain't casting spells.

yeah, the familiar saved you from buying a 200gold scroll from which to cast :D . but its true, some of the abilities can be useful in situations that need spontaneous castings...i for one was saved by my imp as he used his horror to frighten half the party under the sewers of Temple district...

Like Dundee said a hound, but: A War-dog - and I believe you can buy doggie armor for wardogs.

I'd like to note that I do not whatsoever support dog-fighting or training visciousness IRL, but in fantasy game terms I think it would be cool to have a pit bull with chain-mail and a spiked coller. When that mo-fo gets up in a wizard's robe, believe me, he ain't casting spells. </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=plum>Well my perception of the Wizard Slayer isn't that he/she necessarily hates magic - they just hate magic-users! And since their choice of equipment is limited anyway, it seems like they would be willing to use whatever would be most effective in battle against spellcasters. That's why pseudo-dragons came to mind, but you could actually use almost any small "drake" creature. It is almost imperative that the Wizard Slayer's familiar have some Magic Resistance (maybe 20%), so that would eliminate the regular war-dog (as good as they are).

Of course, the other way to view the Wizard Slayer is as the closest equivalent to the PnP 1st Edition Barbarian class as outlined in the Unearthed Arcana. That class did despise magic in general and only used items such as armor and weapons out of necessity - once they realized magically-enhanced items would be necessary to defeat the more powerful mages they encountered. In that scenario, I would agree that the war-dog would be the most appropriate familiar/companion.

Of course, a grizzly bear would work too. It might not have MR, but should be able to withstand a couple of attacks and do some shredding attacks of it's own against the spellcaster.</font>

... Why not just have a type of pseudo Nishruu?