Is there any way to make good archer as a character? I mean archers are against mages useless, and cannot harm most of fighters, or am I wrong. Is there any kit in SoA or TDD that would be a good archer. So I would like someone to tell me if there is any good kit, and which bows, arrows are good for an archer.

Thanks... [img]smile.gif[/img]

... ...

Erm... well... there is the Ranger:Archer kit for one. [img]tongue.gif[/img] ;)

Why do you consider Archers to be useless against Mages? And Archers can definitely put the hurt on Fighters. I am curious to know.

Yes I know for this one... But they say that it is just not good enough. And it realy can't harm mages because they have spell: protections against missiles, and here we go... useless. But I wanna be archer like Legolas or Haldir or...

Are there any good arrows?

Who are these "they"? ;)

PfNormal Missiles: Any Enchanted Arrows
PfNormal Missiles + Stoneskins: Any Enchanted Arrow with Elemental damage (eg. Acid Arrows)
PfMagical Weapons: Normal Arrows
PfMagical Weapons + Stoneskins: The Short Bow of Gesen with Normal Arrows
Mirror Image: Arrows of Dispelling or just brute ApR

Apparently "they" haven't done their research well enough. ;)

Who are these "they"? ;)

PfNormal Missiles: Any Enchanted Arrows
PfNormal Missiles + Stoneskins: Any Enchanted Arrow with Elemental damage (eg. Acid Arrows)
PfMagical Weapons: Normal Arrows
PfMagical Weapons + Stoneskins: The Short Bow of Gesen with Normal Arrows
Mirror Image: Arrows of Dispelling or just brute ApR

Apparently "they" haven't done their research well enough. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Heh you are right, thanks anyway.


How about TDD kit Marksman or something (Heart Shot ability) Do you know anything about it?

Don't worry, Archers rule. The only things that can stop them are:</font>

• The combination of PfMWeapons & PfNMissiles,</font>
• Creatures immune to Missile damage, and</font>
• Creatures that require +3 or better weapons to hit.</font>

And #3 is neatly taken care of by simply taking a quick jaunt through a couple levels of Watcher's Keep.

I've played a Ranger Archer once, and am currently running a Generic Archer(15)->Thief....by the end of SoA, my THAC0 (with Gesen Bow & Arrows of Piercing) will be at least -14 if my numbers are right, and that's with 4.5 attacks per round. Since the lowest AC I'll ever have to punch through is -26, that means I've got about a 40% chance to hit that thing. I forget what my pure Archer's final THAC0 was....I'd have to dig around for his file to check, but I think it was around -20.

Haldir you have Throne of Bhaal. So use it. Install it! Then Archers become really fearsome but they already are a long range death machine. They have nice special ability wich hears by the name Called Shot. Belive me Archers are very powerful... not to mention always cheesy Generic Archer->Mage from Tactics Mod. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

The Short Bow of Gesen handles creatures that require at least +4 enchantment to hit, SixOfSpades.

The Tansheron Bow handles creatures that require at least +3 enchantment to hit.

From memory... a level 34 Ranger:Archer... ...
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Base THAC0 : 0 THAC0
Kit Bonuses: -09 THAC0
18 DEX : -12 THAC0
5* : -15 THAC0
BoArchery : -17 THAC0
Strongarm+2: -20 THAC0
HoBalduran : -21 THAC0
QoPlenty+2 : -23 THAC0</pre>[/QUOTE]I think I am extremely wrong in my figures. This is all from memory, but I remember my roleplayed Robin Hood character had at least -24 THAC0. So imagine what a powergamed one will have.

[ 01-07-2004, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

The trouble I've found is the Protection from Normal Missiles/Protection from Magical Weapons combination. Your missile troops are rendered ineffective instantly. The duration may not be too long, but it seems to be long enough to cause problems. Couple this with Stoneskin, and you still have an issue with damaging enemy spellcasters.

Not that it can't be done of course.

If you have a party, it will not be an issue.

If you are soloing. For Ao's sake, just Stealth for 4 rounds and get back to business.

A Ranger:Archer has all manner of tricks up his sleeve.

Yaaaahhh.....but putting real ammo in them waives their high enchantment, so inorder to hit the Mean Beastie, you've got to use them without ammo....which means that the phantom arrows take forever to get there, which screws up your ApR (since I believe the game can only show 1 Missile per person at one time). And against Mean Beastie, you really want to get the fight over with as quickly as possible--did I use Tansheron against the boss of Improved Sahuagin City? I certainly didn't, I used Karamazov's Bolts+3, despite the fact that I had no proficiencies in Crossbow.

I think I am extremely wrong in my figures. This is all from memory, but I remember my roleplayed Robin Hood character had at least -24 THAC0. So imagine what a powergamed one will have.[/quote]I believe a Level 34 Archer's Kit Bonuses would be -11, not -9 (+1 to hit and +1 to damage every 3 levels).
It's also quite common to have 19 DEX, not 18.
Robin Hood might have been using Taralash+5 instead of Strongarm+2, so that's another 3 points.
And finally, Arrows of Piercing for another 2.
Final rock-bottom THAC0: -30. Or, if you want to add some stinky cheese to the mix, slap on Heartseeker, cast its Bullseye charge, then re-equip Taralash for a temporary THAC0 (2 rounds, wasn't it?) of -37. Twice per day, too. :D

All you need as an Archer is basically two different Bows; Tansheron's and Gesen's with Normal Arrows/Bow of Quiver + 2. Tansheron's can hit all of the +3 creatures (mostly early game though), and Gesen can hit all of the +4 creatures. The normal arrows outfitted for the Gesen Bow, IIRC, also have to additional Electric damage, making it ideal for those PfMW and Stoneskin Mages.

IMO, that would be quite stupid, because then GWW would really suck. I don't really think it works that way.

Tansheron's Bow is very, very useful; If you didn't have any Crossbow profs, then you would be attacking with at least more 1/2 ApR, or maybe 1 1/2 apR (can't remember if Cross(bow)s both get the 1 ApR bonus).

The kit bonus slows down to +1 every five levels instead of every three after lvl 18, so a lvl 34 archer will in fact only have +9 To hit. 18 DEX actually only gives +2 To Hit, 19 is required for +3.

Use DUHM to get 25 DEX and a nice +5 To Hit bonus. Rock-bottom THAC0:

Kit bonus --: -9
25 DEX --- : -14
5* ------- : -17
BoArchery -: -19
Hseeker +3 : -23
AoPiercing -: -27
HoBalduran : -28
Hs ability - : -35

Only for 9 seconds once a day though. The Kensai can do almost as good:

Kit bonus --- : -13
25 STR (CrF) : -20
5* --------- : -23
GoES ------- : -24
SpBrand +5 - : -29
AP Strike --- : -34

Almost the same, but the Kensai can keep it for an extraordinary 18 seconds! As far as permanent THAC0s go, the Kensai has the Archer beat by quite a bit. I'd assume that you can cheese your way down one step with both the Archer and the Kensai by replacing their weapons with something better once you activate the special ability.

[ 01-07-2004, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

Actually, I tested it by equipping Mazzy with Gesen in ToB, and had her shoot at a certain target that respawns indefinitely (won't spoil it for those who do not know). The ammo does take a long time to reach the target, but you still get the same ApR. Thus, you really only notice it right when you first start shooting; after that, the shots are firing off at regular intervals, and you really can't notice much difference. I even used Improved Haste and GWW, and both moved up the ApR just fine. In fact, the missile animation sped up along with the ApR if I remember right, so you may be correct that it can only show one missile at a time on the screen.

Yaaaahhh.....but putting real ammo in them waives their high enchantment, so inorder to hit the Mean Beastie, you've got to use them without ammo....which means that the phantom arrows take forever to get there, which screws up your ApR (since I believe the game can only show 1 Missile per person at one time). And against Mean Beastie, you really want to get the fight over with as quickly as possible--did I use Tansheron against the boss of Improved Sahuagin City? I certainly didn't, I used Karamazov's Bolts+3, despite the fact that I had no proficiencies in Crossbow.

Quote:

From memory... a level 34 Ranger:Archer... ... </font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Base THAC0 : 0 THAC0 Kit Bonuses: -09 THAC0 18 DEX : -12 THAC0 5* : -15 THAC0 BoArchery : -17 THAC0 Strongarm+2: -20 THAC0 HoBalduran : -21 THAC0 QoPlenty+2 : -23 THAC0</pre>

I think I am extremely wrong in my figures. This is all from memory, but I remember my roleplayed Robin Hood character had at least -24 THAC0. So imagine what a powergamed one will have.[/quote]I believe a Level 34 Archer's Kit Bonuses would be -11, not -9 (+1 to hit and +1 to damage every 3 levels).
It's also quite common to have 19 DEX, not 18.
Robin Hood might have been using Taralash+5 instead of Strongarm+2, so that's another 3 points.
And finally, Arrows of Piercing for another 2.
Final rock-bottom THAC0: -30. Or, if you want to add some stinky cheese to the mix, slap on Heartseeker, cast its Bullseye charge, then re-equip Taralash for a temporary THAC0 (2 rounds, wasn't it?) of -37. Twice per day, too. :D </font>[/QUOTE]OH man!!! That's cool

I just remembered... Robin Hood was not wearing the Helm of Balduran, because Robin Hood and his Merry Men (and Woman) were only wearing leather armour and Ioun Stones (strictly no Helmets).

Crikey, how did I complete ToB with them again?

Anyhoo, furthermore, he was using the Heartseeker, not Strongarm. I got mixed up with Robin Clym (another Ranger:Archer character, a soloist too).

Therefore...
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Base THAC0 : 0
Kit Bonuses : -09
Heartseeker+3: -13
QoPlenty : -15
PGIStone : -16
18 DEX : -18
5* : -21</pre>[/QUOTE]Hmmmm... I wonder the last 3 came from. It was too long ago to remember now.

By the way, unless you are roleplaying some cultist Archer that has sworn to use nothing but ranged attacks, they are capable of using Maces. ;)

And Quarterstaffs, and Warhammaers, etc... ...

An alternative for those who don't like the slow moving arrows is to remember that the archer's bonuses apply to all range weapons (yes, even a certain sling!) so for the few times you need high enchantment, you could switch to that.

I can also confirm that you get your correct ApR with GWW and the like with archers. I tested it using the archer's special attack to kill Aerie in one round (12th level of called shot adds -1 to strength of target and 10 hits puts Aerie to 0 for a stat kill). Due to the short duration of the strength drain and the time needed to invoke called shot and GWW, you can't get more than about 12 points of strength drain at a time with one archer. Not enough to kill warriors, although since the STR drain penetrates stoneskin, ironskin, and prot from missiles it could kill some mages. Of course with ray of enfeeblement, you can take down anyone.

You still cannot get around the PfMW and PfNM combo since your arrows are normal--no damage, and the STR effect is magical--PfMW blocks it.

Side note: I wish that dwarves could be rangers too--using the dwarven thrower with it's crushing damage would be so much fun!

Except that later in the game (anything more than halfway through Chapter 4, in fact), Archers have no way of casting Draw Upon Holy Might.

True. In fact....get a load of this moldy heap of gouda! Archers can even go for <u>super</u> cheese by eqipping Spectral Brand+5, using its Armor-piercing Strike, then picking up Heartseeker and casting its THAC0 bonus. Assuming they stack, that brings the Archer's THAC0 to -47. (Trying to work the 2nd Heartseeker into this would be impossible, because the Spectral Brand would have worn off by the time you were able to use the 2nd bow. Unless, of course, it was possible to put Improved Alacrity on a high-level Archer.) Kensai cannot abuse this cheese, since Heartseeker's THAC0 bonus only applies to Missile weapons.

Okay, cool! Hey, I'm actually glad to be wrong! Somebody slap me. (About the "can only display 1 missile per person:" So....what happens when you're firing 10 ApR with Gesen at Improved Jon, and he's teleporting all over the map? I'll find out in my current game.)

[ 01-09-2004, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

::slaps him::
(It's ok, I hit like a girl anyway)

[ 01-09-2004, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Illumina Drathiran'ar ]

Pfft, you could play through at least 70% of what SoA has to offer before you have to give up your Draw Upon Holy Might ;) Actually, I just remembered you could always use Potions of Mind Focusing to boost your DEX. 2 of them would be enough to get the maximum To Hit bonus, and they last 12 hours! I think just about every priest merchant in the game have loads of them.

Ok, the Kensai admits defeat! However, unless I'm mistaken, this would still *only* take the Archer down to -40 THAC0. Also, I missed that the Kensai can equip the Pale Green Ioun Stone to take his THAC0 down one notch, scoring him a tie with the Archer. Excluding this aforementioned and grievous use of cheese of course!

I would be interesting to see Irenicus being chased by about 300 bolts of lightning, even more so to observe what happens when they catch up.

[ 01-09-2004, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

And I'll laugh when he casts PfMW and takes it all away... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Nope. The reason relates to how GWW and Improved Haste work. There is a hard limit of 5 attacks per round, so in order to get 10 (GWW) or to double (IH), they cut the character's round length in half. In GWW's case, it also sets the ApR to 5, in IH's case, it just keeps them the same. Since the round is shorter, the arrows travel more quickly.

We can go +1 better on the THAC0.

Elves get +1 to hit with any bow, shortswords and longswords in true AD&D. Implemented in BG2?

Yay!?

And although the *rock bottom* Dexterity is 25 with DUHM, we can get a permanent 21 in Dexterity as an Elf (+4 THAC0 with ranged weapons... instead of the +5 offered by Dexterity 25).

Not too shoddy eh.

/me ponders... ...

SoA-ToB Spoilers
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19 base
-1 DEX in Hell
+1 from Lum's Machine
+1 from BG1?
The Ioun Stone that +1 DEX?

what good bows are there for the different stages of the game then?

For Powergamers.

Chap2: Tuigan Bow
Chap3: Tuigan Bow, purchase Tansheron's Bow to deal with pesky Iron/Adamantite Golems.
Chap4: Tuigan Bow, Tansheron's Bow
Chap5: Tuigan Bow, Tansheron's Bow
Chap6: Tuigan Bow, use The Short Bow of Gesen to deal with Demi-Liches and Mages, keep the Tansheron Bow for Iron/Adamantite Golems, because it will deal more damage.
Chap7 and the whole of ToB: Same as Chap6

Roleplayers might want to use Strongarm, Heartseeker, Elven Court Bow, Mana Bow or even the plain Composite Longbow. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Actually, the Tuigan Bow loses some of its spark after the Archer using hits Level 13. Assuming Grandmastery in Short Bow, using the Tuigan Bow will grant you an ApR of 5.5--but since that's impossible, you're essentially "wasting" half an attack per round. I would prefer 4.5 ApR with Gesen or Tansheron (or Firetooth or the Mana Bow) to 5 ApR with Tuigan.

Archers can also use the GoES, right? That would bring your permanent ApR up to the maximum of 5, using any short bow you like.

Depends on whether you have the Grandmastery Patch or not.

Without,

Tuigan Bow:
----
Base: 3
Lvl 7/13: 4
GoES: 4.5
5*: 5

Other Shortbows, Longbows and the Light Crossbow of Speed will have 4 ApR.

The remaining Crossbows will have 3 ApR.
____

With the GM Patch, all bows and the LCoSpeed will have 5 ApR, while the remaining Crossbows will have 4 ApR.

With the GM Patch, the Short Bow of Gesen will be the most damaging, followed by the Strongarm Longbow.

Without the GM Patch, it will be the Tuigan Bow.

Isn't the GM patch faulty in that it gives a whole ApR for GM? IIRC, it's supposed to only give half an attack.

Actually, I tested it by equipping Mazzy with Gesen in ToB, and had her shoot at a certain target that respawns indefinitely (won't spoil it for those who do not know). The ammo does take a long time to reach the target, but you still get the same ApR. Thus, you really only notice it right when you first start shooting; after that, the shots are firing off at regular intervals, and you really can't notice much difference. I even used Improved Haste and GWW, and both moved up the ApR just fine. In fact, the missile animation sped up along with the ApR if I remember right, so you may be correct that it can only show one missile at a time on the screen. </font>[/QUOTE]With my Kensai using Firetooth (the returning throwing dagger) as his primary weapon, I can confirm that he gets the correct APR. (Still in SOA, but with both SOA and TOB installed, Baldurdash, and no mods.) What you see in the text scroll is that the determination to hit seems to be made immediately when the weapon leaves his hand, but the damage doesn't actually apply until the animation connects with the target. As Nerull found with the Gesen bow, there is quite a delay initially before you start seeing damage rolls, but once they start coming in (or if you just watch the THACO rolls) you can see all the attacks occuring correctly.

With Improved Haste he gets 7 attacks per round with Firetooth (3.5 base since specialized, level 13+, and Firetooth's base APR is 2), and although the dagger flight seems to be visually sped up, I have actually seen two throwing daggers animated on the screen at the same time.

*Minor spoiler* (reference to specific encounter)
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I remember being especially confused about this because the first time I had him buffed with Improved Haste was for the House Jaellat battle in Ust Natha, and with all the action occuring it took me a while to sort through and figure out that his attacks were working as expected. Drow fell quite nicely, though [img]smile.gif[/img]

Someone sed something about a kensai... i thought they couldnt use ranged weapons?

Kensais can use most magical throwing weapons. IIRC, this includes the throwing daggers, the throwing axes, and the Dwarven Thrower.

This was a comparison of the lowest possible THAC0 though.

I think Shortbow of Gesen