Perhaps this little nitpicking gripe shall come as sounding overly grumpy and unforgiving of the game, but for what its worth, here's the details from my latest game:

I should warn that this could be rather spoilerish to those who are just starting out in the game for the first time.

I quick saved just before the exit of the first Irenicus dungeon and had then exited to have the first linear dialog encounter with that said villain. During this exchange with the Cowled Wizards, Imoen, illogically belying her 16 or 17 odd intelligence, opens her trap and gets involved in the fight by pitifully attempting to magic missile Irenicus twice. This of course results in her being taken away by the Cowled Wizards and seperated from the party which is rather inconvenient for such an early period in the game. So I attempted to find a creative solution to this problem by saving, reloading the quicksave and using any last magic missiles left in Imoen's memorized spells on the encounter with the locked up Doppleganger. But alas no! How this idea was all in vain. The game's linear and forced early story line means that regardless of what she has memorised, she still manages to cast two magic missile spells out of nowhere. (I'm thinking her belt???) and so there is no other way to prevent her getting taken away, which I think isn't great roleplaying.

She is only half a mage, so casting spells at will as in third edition rules for sorcerors is out of the question. This situation has taken my irritability with Imoen to new heights unfortunately - I shan't be taking her on in the party if I can help it.

Its nothing against her personally of course as she is a wonderful character. But if she's going to keep secret hidden abilities away from my usage as party leader, then she'll have no place in my party. ;)
So I'll invite everyone to tell their own annoying or entertaining plotholes as well, as I recall them being quite a factor in Bg2 last time around....

It is not a plot hole. It is to keep the player from creating a plot hole. What do you think about Mr. Gath.

SPOILER!!
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You cannot stop Gorion from getting killed in Baldur's Gate 1 either, although he casts his spells as if he's some kind of uber-mage (which he is not, otherwise he would've fried the masked figure easily)

Imoen's belt, on the other hand, is something else. Because Imoen is the thing you're going after, it would be kind of weird if she would die in the dungeon. That's why she runs when she's low on hit points. The belt she's wearing is just some nifty equipment that makes her invulnerable when she has naught but one hit point left. Just a little trick from Bioware's side to make the whole story believable (and codeable).

[ 12-31-2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Link ]

I'm sorry, but I beg to differ. Although I think I spelled the case out for a small 'illogical linear hole' fairly well, for the sake of argument, I see a plot hole as being any illogical, unexplained, implausible or inexplicable event that results in an inescapable or seemingly 'predetermined' fate.

So are the extra magic missiles Immy has accountable? Well, I'll see what others think before coming to an absolute verdict, but as it stands for me, they are unaccountable in the game so far. Thus, again I nitpick, but it can only be an unexplained plot hole unless her belt is an unidentified belt of magic missiles or some crazy little thing like that.
I'm sure one could come up with other rationalisations for it as well.

But furthermore, I don't see how by passing the first encounter with Irenicus or another script line to allow one to prevent Imoen being taken away should induce a plothole, as he doesn't tell you anything integral to the story nor would anything be missing or unexplained. Unless you count the quest to track her down, which would be unnecessary obviously.

I've mentioned this one before ages ago on another forum I think, but another plothole I remember from my previous game involves the time-period during which the party approach Bodhi's hideout to kill her.
In this final encounter, no matter what time you approach the area - it is always nightime. One would think that if you got up at 6.am in the morning from an inn/area nearby, you could approach her hideout with a tactical advantage at your disposal - daylight. But no matter what, it is night and its obviously in her favour. I'm sure there's a cover up rationalisation for this as well to prevent whatever and so forth, but the fact remains that in terms of virutal world mechanics imitating reality, this is an illogical flaw. ;)

Anyway, enough banter for now. Interesting to hear other thoughts.
Cheers,
Cerebrodragon

That belt is a nice litle cheat to. just use the CLUA codes and you can never die..HAHAHAHA!.. sorry..
Spoiler for nay one who has not made it past chap4
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well its the same thing when you try to kill renal blodscalp after accepting from gaelen some gut pops up and kills you in seconds. but when you pick bodih he can be killed (not that i have ever played bodih)

Thanks for that Link.
Yeah, I tend to agree that its just a code thing based on whats feasible. I guess it just leaped at me a little more.
All apologies for going overboard! :D

Actually, I enjoyed your arguments as I've had same thoughts about this as well. You just managed to eloquently explain it, nice job.

Yeah, I just did that part and found it a bit silly that we left the docks during the day and arrived at the graveyard at night. We must have taken the really loooong route ;) . Although you wouldn't really be able to have a tactical advantage if you went in the daytime - surely Bodhi just wouldn't be there, as she wasn't when she summoned you the first time, so you'd just arrive to nothing and she'd ambush you when you arrived in her crypt.

it is not a linear plotline. why would black isle go all out of their way to make another silly, less compelling path? all fans would have done is whine at a later release date.

and YOU CAN KILL GORIAN!! i was my necromancer level 8 and summoned a ****load of spawnings (animal summon levels 1-3) to create a huge army to take the hits. he has some mega-powerful attacks and slaughtered them all in seconds but he fell with some magic missles and other nice things to encourage him [img]smile.gif[/img]

Huh? BG1, SoA, and ToB are pretty linear. They don't fit in well with the rest of the Forgotten Realms universe, as IW and FR fans have proven multiple times, but as computer games they follow each other pretty nicely.

As for Imoen's magic missiles, Imoen's belt, Arkanis Gath, etc., this is the equivalent of a human DM planting a Tyrannosaurus Rex into a field to chase deviant characters back on the main road (and back to the matter--or quest--at hand). The DM will do anything from botching stats (Anomen) to tinkering with time itself (Graveyard shift) in order to preserve the precious plot.

In response to unusual plot developments;

In the first 'video' part of the game in irenicus' dungeon when he says "finally, the child of Bhaal has awoken", why is it not possible to pretend to be asleep? Surely the child of bhaal should have the ability to pretend to be asleep? You could roll a d6;

roll a 1- fail to close eyes in time
2- close eyes but then open them in front of irenicus
3- close eyes but then burst out laughing with irenicus in the room
4,5,6- successfully keep eyes closed long enough to avoid detection

It is very easy to create a game without any plot holes. All the makers of BG had to do was make a shot-em-up type game with no plot. And they could have got rid of NCP character inconsistencies by not giving any NCPs a character. Personally, the thing I like most about the BG games is that there is a story.

I'm more than ready to overlook Imoen's irrational behaviour. She was consistently acting freaked out by the dungeon. I'm sure, in her place, I might have done something equally stupid. And, overall, the plot has far fewer holes than most TV programs.

Might I add that one thing I really liked was that the story wasn't about saving the world from total destruction. It is always clear that the world will go on, regardless of the actions of your character - it just might be a little bit better or worse. This appears to be a stunningly original concept that has never occurred to the makers of any other RPG game - you'd have thought that one of the BG writers might have dropped a note to the makers of Neverwinter Nights and suggested the same concept to them.

Did you know if you've a patched TOSC and you kill gorian, it insta kill's the PC too...

Also the first spell he get's off insta kill's the PC too..


Mage's must study their spellbook daly to remind themselve's of the word's of magic that burn away from them quickly as dry timber, it's quite possible that imoen, in untter desperation called forth the spell's in panic, uttering word's not knowing what spell she was lossing but knowing that she just had to get the spell's out and stop the boney dagger from being returned to her skull, and try and get his sick twisted finger's from her brain...


Somtime's the rule's can make the game and plot unfun to play, so you must ignore them, or bend them.

It would be plothole if it didn't kill you when you kill gorian.

think of the story. where would you go? gorian was your guide and you are a young soon-to-be-hero with no idea of whats going on until he tells you to meet up with kalid and jehera at the friendly arm inn

I once heard of a guy who was playing a game where Gorion killed the masked figure in the beginning of Baldur's Gate 1. Needless to say, the cutscene never finished and the game crashed. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I have my doubts about that. Gorion dies after a certain amount of time, regardless of whether or not the AF hits him or no. And G's been programmed so that he wont have enough spells to kill the AF...i just find it unlikely ;)

I have my doubts about that. Gorion dies after a certain amount of time, regardless of whether or not the AF hits him or no. And G's been programmed so that he wont have enough spells to kill the AF...i just find it unlikely ;) </font>[/QUOTE]That's right, he automatically dies after about 20 seconds or so. I kept reloading and watching the scene to see what happens: a couple of Magic Missiles, and then he'd start fighting. That's when he would die, even though Armored Figure never hit him.

Obviously killing your foster father, without raising questions of acting brazenly out of character, would not only bring the Watchers swarming down upon you, but would also, from a programming pespective, screw up the game, so you die. In SoA they handle it much neater when you screw up like that, like attacking the Shadow Thieves when you ally with them. Having Arkanis come in and instakill you at least makes some sense. (But you can suck his brains out as a shapechanged mind flayer!)

I think the reason for Imoen's casting is simple, in order for her to get kidnapped, therefore giving the PC a reason to go after her, she has to break a law and be arrested with Irenicus.

Think of it as this way, during your stay in the dungeon, you get plenty of dialogue with her where you can say stuff like, "Once we're out of here, we're out of here for good, and we're not looking back." It stand to my conclusion that if Imoen isn't kidnapped, your character could care less about Irenicus and whatever he wants with him/her.

Also, Imoen, though travelled, isn't travelled enough to know that in Athkatla, there are laws against using magic without a license!

Testing.

But the problem is: Imoen uses a Magic Missile spell, even if you erased it from her spell slot (or used up all her MM spells). Why she does it, that's legitimate and no big deal. How she does it, however, is what was bugging Cerebrodragon

Sudden Surge of Bhaalspawn Powers. ;)

Good point Dundee, makes sense considering her heritage.

So, as i know Imoen casts the missiles, gets taken away. When i first played i put leather on Imoen and thus taking away her magic ability, yet she still fired. By the way, whay happened to her unremovable belt after the protagnist saves her? I also been thinking lately. If you cast to much magic in Althlakla, could you not just be sent away without finding a way to where Imoen is? I got a warning once about using magic. hehe, i used a shadow door spell in the opening. I suppose i need to try this.

No. If you keep casting magic cowled wizards will just attack you.

Which they did with Jon Irenicus as well, but he was so powerful, they dared not approach. "This mage's power is immense" Jon Irenicus, seeing the opportunity, said they could take him but they would have to take the girl as well: in that case the protagonist was forced to follow.

However, if you beat up their sorry butts long enough, they too will concede that your power is immense and leave you alone.

Well.. they do send a couple of their powerful goons, Dundee [img]smile.gif[/img] (.. worth some decent XP ;) )

Well...
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Some Tactical Spoilers
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... the fight is easily won with traps, and it is justifiable too; because

1) They warn you of "serious consequences"
2) You know they teleport in when you cast a spell

So a bevy of traps laid around your Mage and some summons from a Priest; and voila! You have set up an ambush to beat the tar out of the Cowled Wizards.

By that logic, surely, your own "mage" would get the "offer" to be "escorted" to spellhold... Of course, that'd screw up the plot further, but it'd be interesting [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Mild spoilier
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I think we all assume Jon put it on her for some sinister reason, perhaps to continue the spells he worked, perhaps to compel her to go to wherever he was (like a sympathy spell), and when they go to Spellhold, he gets it off her.

[ 01-05-2004, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Illumina Drathiran'ar ]

Hell no! It was some evil evil mage called Bioware who used a piece of equipment as coding!

actually you can seriously exploit that belt...the unkillable, unhurtable imoen cheese...