Or combinations of classes?

sorcerors....likely...(they rock!!!)
berserker mage duals...(better than a kensai mage dual, defensively)
ranger clerics...(all the cleric and ranger spells)
wizardslayer thief dual (good magic resistance, use any item to override wizslayer restrictions)
kensai thief dual...(a kensai wearing armor and using holy avenger...)
assassin mage dual...(poisoned melf minute meteors)
thief illusionist is kinda cheesy...extra spells, and spike traps...
archer...(called shot used to kill by attribute drain)
chavalier (with specialization in axes, and giving him a magic throwing axe, bypassing his restriction on ranged weapons)
shapeshifter (both with and without shapeshifter rebalance mod...rebalance makes the kit incredibly powerful, without the mod, cast dispell on a shapeshifter, his equipped claws are gone, so now cernd can use high powered druid weapons)

that's all i can think off the top of my head...

Funny that you don't mention the uber-cheesy Kensai/Mage combo [img]smile.gif[/img] I never tried it, but it is (or at least was) considered the most (ch)easy class out there.

Actually, Link, he did mention the Kensai/Mage in comparison to the Berserker/Mage. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Though I don't know if it would be better or not...

In my opinion....and in no particular order....

Kensai->Mage
Kensai->Thief
Wizard Slayer->Thief
Weimer's Shapeshifter
Weimer's Anti-Paladin
Weimer's Generic Archer->Mage
Ranger/Cleric

And any character that uses the Cloak of Mirroring, Shield of Balduran, or Sanchuudoku. (Exception: Wizard Slayers may use Sanchuudoku's Regeneration, as they're screwed out of everything else.)

ok, the difference between kensai mage and berserker mage...which is more evil, and offers superior benefits...

i don't know the exact numbers, but the kensai mage will do more damage, if both are dualed at the same level, 9 or 12, and have same stats, etc.

kai is a good ability, especially combined with draw on holy might (bhaalspawn ability) and a strength belt...

but enrage is such a killer DEFENSIVE ability, it seriously kicks ass..immunity to imprison, level drain...add on chaotic commands, and you have an unstunable, uncharmable pure killer in your hands...

finally, both berserker and kensai mages should wear robes, but berserker mages can wear helms and bracers...

so imho, a berserker mage offers a few more perks to make up for the pure killing power of a kensai mage...the clincher is the equipment options...there are some great bracers and helms in the game, and both will not interrupt spell casting...the extra to hit and damage bonuses are not enough to compensate for the defensive bonuses of the berserker mage...

thank you...

forgot the utter cheesyness of weimer combinations...

anti paladin-thief
anti paladin-mage

actually the anti pally mage dual is probably superior in utter power to any other dual to mage combination...that dispell on hit, looks like a good power, but not all that wonderful, right???

wrong...

try this...plain non magical swords, and dispell on hit...instant mage killer...

i can't remember i've tested this or not, but its reasonable and should work...

equip an antipally mage with a weapon on the off hand, cast melf minute meteors...about once every 4th meteor, the off hand weapon should hit the target at range, and should dispell on hit...of course, the twice level dispell, like keldorn's inquisitor dispell is awesome...an anti pally mage can really really really abuse that...spell immunity abjuration, and start tossing dispell magics around...its obscene...

oh yeah...anti pallys rock...dualed to mage they are stinky...

inquisitor and berserker by themselves are pretty cheesy in my opinion...


thief mage dual is a good one for solo... but once you get to lvl20 you stop getting extra spells... the game will prove to be quite boring from them (and that will happen real soon)

Playing right now Anti-Paladin dualled to Thief and it's nice. Very nice. Good melee power, packs a punch. Good thief too - Hide in Shadows, Backstab, Pick Lock/Pockets, Find Traps, Disarm Traps. Use Any Item ability - yeah, rocks. Dispell with every hit. Set Snare, incl. ToB abilities. True Sight. Dispell.

Heck, this is a plain melee powerhouse and with Use Any Item, swing them mean mage spells and whatever else what you can get the hands on, easily as well. Don't need anyone else, walking powerhouse and definately more fun to play then some sorcerer [img]smile.gif[/img]

not in the quite the same league as the rest but - fighter/druids wearing full plate mail

When you said "kensai thief dual...(a kensai wearing armor and using holy avenger...)" Um.... isnt the holy avenger only usable by paladins, or are you talking aout something else?

one of the rogue High Level Abilities in ToB is 'Use any Item' . . .

pretty powerful in itself as it allows the rogue to use, for example, paladin only weapons (and scrolls and wands and . . . ) but with a kensai->thief dual it even overrides the kensai restrictions allowing you to use armour, bracers, helmets etc.

i'm looking forward to it [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm going to volunteer the Assassin>Fighter to the cheese list as well.

Poison weapons, Fighter THACO, 7x Backstab and Assassination HLA...

All that is needed is an improved haste...

10 attacks with a 7X backstab multiplier.

My choices are:
Sorcerer
Kensai->Theif
Wizard Slayer->Thief
Kensai->Mage

Actually, for most classes it has less to do with the abilities themselves but how the player uses them. For example, the sorcerer is not inherently cheesy; it's just that they can exploit the spell system to their advantage (a wizard can do the same, but just doesn't have the number of castings that a sorcerer does). Either one can use unlimited spell exploits; it's really up to the player if they wish to exploit this or not. I played through with a sorcerer, and refused to take Mislead, Project Image, or Simulacrum; he was powerful, but not really cheesy. Use Any Item is the same way; if you use it to use wands, rings, scrolls, etc. then it is not really cheesy. However, if you use it to strap full plate on your kensai/thief (who chooses not use armor because of their philosophical system, as opposed to not knowing how to). I almost wish the ability was restricted to use with any item EXCEPT weapons and armor, just to avoid such gouda. Ranger/cleric is another fine example; if you restrict yourself to only cleric spells (other than a few very low level ranger spells that you would be able to cast from your ranger levels), then it is not cheesy at all. However, if you throw Iron Skins and cast Draw Upon Holy Might on your character, then you are crossing that line into areas of cheesiness. If the player chooses not to cross that line, they can; however, I do agree that having the option just sitting there to do so adds an incentive that shouldn't be there.

Oh, and the exceptions to the above are the Weimer classes (overbalanced shapeshifter and anti-paladin). They are beyond gouda.

You know, Nerull: I was just thinking about making a post like yours. Little bit moralistic here, a bit guru-talk there ;)

To give him his due, though, the Generic Archer is almost 100% fair--the only part that's a little unbalanced is that a Fighter Archer gains levels faster than a Ranger Archer, which means it always has a better THAC0, Called Shot, etc., and also gets I think an additional 6 HLAs.
The only way a Generic Archer can get <u>truly</u> cheesy is by Dualing to Mage.

To give him his due, though, the Generic Archer is almost 100% fair--the only part that's a little unbalanced is that a Fighter Archer gains levels faster than a Ranger Archer, which means it always has a better THAC0, Called Shot, etc., and also gets I think an additional 6 HLAs.
The only way a Generic Archer can get <u>truly</u> cheesy is by Dualing to Mage. </font>[/QUOTE]especially since, due to my experiments giving poison weapon to non assassins, i suspect that called shot, like poison weapon is an ability you get the higher benefits even if you are dualed to mage, and no longer progressing in the archer class...the ability i think works like this...if you are a certain level, like i think level 15 or so you get to drain strength, so even if you dualed at level 9, when your mage class reaches level 15, your called shot will drain strength...

now combine called shot at higher level with...TIMESTOP!!!

the cheese!!! not only is every attack automatically a hit under timestop, you can easily attribute drain dragons...

now then archer mages are powerful enough, what about archer thieves???

once you progress high enough, you can set up ambushes like no one's buisness...

a timetrap set up, then go to mr dragon, improve haste yourself, then sting him, so he follows you to the timetrap, gets frozen and quickly attribute drained to death..no fuss, no mess...

the only archer dual that isn't cheesy is archer cleric...hahahhahahah!!!

True, they do advance faster and get more HLA, but lose Stealth. It's still a little uneven, but I agree that it is probably the most balanced class he did (maybe it was the first one he did... ;) ). However, it does get cheesy with the dualclassing options, both the mage and thief. Then again, so does the kensai/mage and kensai/thief. Once again, it comes back to the player. I downloaded Tactics just to install that class, for two reasons:

</font>

1. I disagree that only humans, half-elves, and elves should be allowed to be best at archery/missile weapons (dwarvish and gnomish crossbowmen and halfling archers and slingers).</font>
2. To allow a slinger instead of bows/crossbows, but also a dart thrower.</font>

I agree with both you and Userunfriendly that dualclassing them is just nasty. Lots of cheese, both dualed to thief and mage. But I would just play it singleclassed (a halfling slinger). Slight jump in abilities over the ranger version but enough to make too much difference. Once again, up to the person to exercise some discipline, but having the option to go overbalanced is still out there.

Two questions...

PLaying a Ranger/Cleric...

Well, the ranger has access do druidic spell while de cleric has access to cleric spells (dohhh), but the ranger can't cast spells up to 4th circle, and the cleric surely can... SO will I have access to druidic spells of 5th, 6th and 7th circle?

I mean, will I be able to ironskin and summon fire elementals playing a cleric ranger?

If so, then its really really cheesy...


Second question...

Why is wizardslayer -> thief cheesy? I just don't get it...

The way the spell system is set up in the game, it checks separately which spell group you have access to (druid group or cleric group) then how many spell slots you have. Since it does those separately, the ranger gets access to the druid group while the cleric gets the cleric group. Thus, you get access to both groups. Then, it figures out the number of spell slots you get, total. Thus, you end up getting full access to all priest spells in the game. You can summon fire elementals, cast Iron skins and Draw Upon Holy Might on yourself, throw Insect Plague on enemies followed by Holy Smite, etc. You shouldn't be able to do that by PnP rules, but by exploiting the weakness in the way the game sets up the ranger/cleric spell selection, you become uberpriests, with fighting skills thrown in.

Wizardslayer/thief is cheesy due to the Use Any Item ability in ToB. The ability allows the thief to use ANY item, including those prohibited to the other class (including all of the magic items that wizard slayers are not supposed to use). Thus, they get all of the benefits of the wizard slayer, yet get to circumvent all of the penalties. Same thing with kensai/thief (can strap on full plate and still get all of the kensai bonuses.

[ 11-29-2003, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Nerull ]

now here is a really really sick and twisted idea..have to try it sometime..

fighter mage cleric...and use shadowkeeper to apply the archer kit patch...

(cheating, and not just cheese...but bear with my reasoning...)

druid and cleric spells, and mage spells...can you say...

implosion, creeping doom and bolt of glory???

sunray, g elemental summoning and nature's beauty????

OY!!!!

<font color=gold>
In the thought of this topic: all classes that are even remotely powerful are considered cheese. The fact that you are a Bhaalspawn has nothing to do with it. A Beastmaster is not considered a cheese character. Why? Because you don't run through the entire game with one with (ch)e(e)(a)se.
</font>

beast masters aren't cheesy...just kinda pitiful...sorry, i know some people like the kit, but its not a very powerful kit, with some almost crippling restrictions...

no metal at all..sigh..

you almost have to dual to cleric to make it decently useful...sorry...

....True, you can kill enemies by draining their STR--but be reminded that enemies killed through stat drain do not earn you EXP.

I don't think so. The only way an Archer->Thief could be cheesy is through UAI, and of course that's the fault of UAI, not because somebody wants to make a sharpshooting Thief. Besides, even *with* UAI, the only difference is they'll be able to wear heavy armor....which only matters on the front lines....and how often is an Archer going to be on the front anyway?

The only Archer Dual-class that is truly cheesy (IMHO) is the Archer->Mage. Toss around Time Stops and ADHWs to your heart's content, and if somebody has Magic Resistance, just Improved Haste and pincushion them. Melee? What melee? This is no better than a Kensai->Mage with Throwing Impaler.

Classes don't cause cheese.
Cheesy players, who abuse certain classes, cause cheese.
(Caveat to Statement 2: Different classes have different standards of "abuse." For example, even installing the Overbalanced Shapeshifter falls under "abuse.")

Well, I look at the trade-off in this manner:<font color=gray>
Ranger Archer: Is able to Stealth and cast 3 spells from Druid Levels 1-3. Cannot Dual-class.
Fighter Archer: Can place 2 stars in melee weapons. Can Dual to Cleric, Druid, Thief or Mage.</font>
Now, I consider that fair. But, you see, there's more:
<font color=gray>Fighter Archer: Can achieve Grandmastery in Sling and Darts.</font>
This unbalances the Fighter/Ranger scale. But I don't blame Weimer at all for this: It's a weakness of the way the Ranger kit was implemented, since they should have had Slings and Darts as well.
But, this I <u>can</u> blame Weimer for:
<font color=gray>Fighter Archer: Levels up at the rate of a Fighter, yet gains skills at the same rate (per level) as a Ranger Archer, thus getting a better THAC0 and more Called Shots & HLAs.</font>
If I were Weimer, I would slow the Generic Archer's Archer-kit bonuses down just a tad, so that a Ranger Archer and a Generic Archer's THAC0 will be as equal as possible throughout the game. There's nothing to be done about the HLAs, though.

So....you would have Ranger/Clerics have Cleric levels 1-7, and Druid levels 1-3, is that it? Or are you objecting to the two sides of the Priest scroll being combined at all?

No--all classes that make other classes practically obsolete, or rely on completely out-of-character behavior, or blantantly ignore game rules, are considered cheese. A Kensai->Mage has the THAC0 of a high-level Fighter, but is just as skilled in magery as a character who's been a Wizard their whole life. A Wizard Slayer->Thief is supposed to *refuse* to use most magical items, but thanks to the cheese of UAI, they can conveniently forget that they hate magic. And the Overbalanced Shapeshifter lives in blissful ignorance that you can't cast spells while shapechanged--among a whole raft of other stuff, of course.

Ok. By reading through this topic I have come to my own conclusion about what classes are cheesy and those that are not. I have not heard of Weimer and his new classes before. I am just playing the game with patch and baldurash fixpack. Here are my choices for cheesy classes:

* Human fighters dualled to whatever class.
* Ranger/cleric multiclass or dualclass.
* Shapeshifter?? Never tried.
* Chavallier with axes? Never tried.
* Human Assasin/mage? Never tried. Sounds like fun.
* Ilussionist/thief? Never tried.
* Archer probably. Incredible class, most of the time in full health.

Not sorcerer no? I played with a sorcerer through all bg2 and I think he has too few spells in certain levels (I think level 3 and level 5 perhaps a few more). He is convenient to each situations though, since the sorcerer doesn't need to rest as much as the mage, IMO.

[ 11-30-2003, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: el_kalkylus ]

The Sorcerer cannot be cheesy?

Bwer-wha... BWERWAH-HAHAHAHA!!!!

*cough* *cough*

the sorceror is the very essence of cheese...sorcerors are huge walking chunks of dairy products...their spell ability makes most mage spell cheeses possible...endless spells, infinite and utterly evil project image abuse, you name the cheese, a sorceror can do it...

So if a sorcerer is cheesy, does that make a solo sorcerer cheesy as well? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Sorcerers are not cheesy by themselves if you play them like you would a Mage and not exploit some spells .

I don't quite understand. If the sorcerer is cheesy with project image, shouldn't a mage be cheesy as well? It's all about resting. My sorcerer last game (first time through ToB) didn't give my party immense power, the archer did. Maybe that had something to do with the fact that he didn't have the 'Lower Resistance' or 'Project image' spells.

a mage can be cheesy with project image...however its the sorceror's ability to cast many spells...you see, certain spells get more and more powerful the more times you can cast them in the same battle...like lower resistance, and animate dead...a mage always has to preplan his spell tables, and choose the spells he thinks he's going to use in the next battle, and almost always tries to give himself a more flexable spell selection, so he's ready for unforseen events...so he's not going to have, usually more than one lower resistance, and one animate dead or spook spell....but a sorceror will always have several casts of each of these spells, and by putting them in spell triggers or sequencers, you vastly magnify their power...a spell sequenced spook makes dragon hunting dead easy...a triggered lower resistance, and dead dragon...a project image supercheese, like summoning 5 planetars must be planned out by a mage in advance, a sorceror is always ready to do it anytime he/she wants...

mages can do cheese...with planning and rest...but a sorceror is always ready to be cheesy...

in fact, the cheese guide was written for parties with a pc sorceror... ;) ;)

Sorcerer abusing certain spells leads my list
Next would probably be Kensai/Mage
Third..I'd say Cavaliers at high levels

Amen.

Maybe add slings and darts to the ranger archer, then take away called shot for the fighter archer? That might make it more balanced.

The first one. That's how it would work in PnP; they would be able to cast the few druid spells that they got before they dual-classed, and cast whichever cleric spells they earn from there. However, the only real way to do this in BG might be to separate the "spell books" into cleric and druid books (like the priest and mage ones do currently).

Yes, mages rest more. Funny there is a cheese guide though. I will have to look into it, perhaps someday.

If you have ToB installed, Mages and Sorcerers need not rest anymore once they hit level 18-20+. Sorcerers have greater flexibility with their cheesibility though.

To summarise the issue,

Mages have great versatility in their spell memorisation, but lack flexibility with their spell selection during combat.

Sorcerers have a limited spell library, but have absolute flexibility with their spell selection during combat.

This is particularly important when you consider how both classes restore their spells during combat. It is also the reason why Sorcerers can spam multiple MSwords along with RRRs during their combat as compared to the Mage.

This is especially emphasised with the introduction of level 9-10 spells.

Yes, mages rest more. Funny there is a cheese guide though. I will have to look into it, perhaps someday. </font>[/QUOTE]http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/cheese_guide.zip

;) ;) ;)

exactly!!! exploiting endless spells or wish spell abuse makes it evil...

the edge still comes out with sorcerors though...

i mean once you actually learn the spell tables in bg2, you find maybe 3-5 spells per level that you actually use, because the other spells are not very good... you end up filling a mage slots with a few spells, multiple copies...for example, you generally end up filling most of level 4 slots with stoneskin...

i personally would never use anything other than a sorceror unless i was multiclassing with mage fighter or dualling a berserker...

and there is a lot of fun running "theme" sorcerors...

like a "blaster" sorceror, specializing in invocation spells, loading up on fireball, skull traps and flame arrows...

or a "summoner" sorceror, loading up on animate dead, mordy swords, and haste and mass invisibility (to buff summons)

me, i tend to combine the two, making "blast and summon" spell selections...leave stuff like knock, elemental protection and other useful spells to my normal mages...

sorcerors rock!!! ;)

Huh, any challenge left when you play with 2 sorcerors and other mages ?
(and probably some R/C or F/M also)

You should seriously consider no reloads challenge. :D

[ 12-02-2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Leslie ]

Wow! That was an interesting read, thanks to all involved.

[ 12-02-2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Ironbar ]