Is there a save VS. his Imprisonment or any other way to avoid it except with PfMW?-I am talking about solo C/R in a No-Reloads game here.

Save vs. Death at +-4 if I'm not mistaken.

So ...

If I drink a Potion of Magic shielding (is that the one that makes all your saving throws automaticallly ?), I am safe from that ?

Except that he has a nasty Aura of Antimagic or something and he dispels all the buffs. :mad: Not sure if this ability is limited ...

Alson ?
BTW: Nice to see you back. Hope to see some cool threads again. ;)

Thanks, Leslie. [img]smile.gif[/img] If you're constantly on the watch, you'll see me lurking around about an hour a day... I just have less time to post, and I rather not post at all than post some half cooked replies all over the place.

As for the Anti-Magic Aura, I can't say I remember such a thing, but then again - I havn't faced the Minor Avatar for so long that it's not unlikely I'm simply misremembering. (wow, a triple negative!). Nevertheless, it should still be possible to get the Ranger/Cleric's Save vs. Death to around -5 with all those Rings of Preservation and whatnot. ;)

What about some invisibility/indetectability (Hide in Shadows, Sanctuary). That should make targeted spellcasting impossible. And all you need in addition to that is a one hit kill (Harm, FoD,...)

IIRC MaoS has Detect Invisible by Script so even if he would be invisible he would probably be "reveald". But i do not know about Sanctuary for sure...

I would almost want to yell: go try it out, but as you're playing a no-reloads game, that's outta the question ;) True Sight is a scripted spell, but can't you cast a different spell while he's casting the True Sight spell? That would enable you to fire one of Faceman's spells such as FoD or Harm.

Technically speaking, Faceman, the Harm spell is not a insta-kill spell [img]smile.gif[/img] I'm not too sure what would happen if you would cast a Harm spell on him; would he unleash Imprisonment-hell upon you once you start casting the spell..

Yeah. My toughts exactly. So can anyone confirm Leslie`s theory about Potions of Magic Shielding?

[ 10-25-2003, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Xen ]

Unfortunately he has 90% MR. :mad: Harm is blocked by MR.
Harm is out of the question for a no-reloads game in this situation.
His THAC0 is good and he has 4 ApR (right, Xen ?) so C/R would be probably interupted when casting Harm.
(hmm, but you could cast it before he sees you and try to be lucky with the first attack)

I believe that by then you should have a couple of HLA's which would be very handy. The only thing is protection from that imprisonment and poison.

[ 10-25-2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Leslie ]

I don't know what kind of Imprisonment he uses, but the standard is "no save" :(
I'm gonna do some testing and report back.

Cool. In the mean time I'm gonna roll a healthy Ranger/Cleric to start his journey. ;)

Wait, no, I still have to finish my no-reloads party ... :D
(they are in WK on level 3 if anyone is interested)

Okay, done some testing and here are the results:
I used the following (cheated) party
<font color=#FF0000>Warden</font>:Mage/Cleric, lvl 50/50, all available Imprisonment spells
<font color=#0000FF>Saver</font>:Ranger/Cleric,lvl 50/50, all saves 1
<font color=#FFFFFF>Resister</font>:Ranger/Cleric,lvl 50/50, all resistances 100
<font color=#FFFF00>Buffer</font>:Fighter/Mage/Cleric, lvl 50/50/50, all available defensive spells
.
First for the Imprisonment spells
there are four of them:
</font>

• SPWI910 (Imprisonment): standard Wizard spell, long casting time, Touch Range</font>
• SPIN580 (Imprisonment): faster casting time, Touch Range</font>
• SPIN786 (Banishment): visual candy/animation only, long range but does nothing (not even on lvl1 characters)</font>
• SPIN788 (Demilich Trap Soul): The mighty Gaxx's spell, fast casting, ranged but not too far</font>

.
Now on the results with the different candidates
<font color=#0000FF>Saver</font>: No survival chance with any of the spells (except for Banishment which does nothing anyway)
.
<font color=#FFFFFF>Resister</font>: Same thing here, goes bye-bye every time (except for Banishment again)
.
<font color=#FFFF00>Buffer</font>: Survived, when using the following buffs
Arcane
</font>

• Spell Trap</font>
• Mass Invisibility</font>
• Spell Turning</font>
• Spell Deflection</font>
• Spell Immunity: Abjuration</font>
• Improved Invisibility</font>
• Invisibilty 15' Radius</font>
• Invisibility</font>

Divine
</font>

• Shield of the Archons</font>
• Pixie Dust</font>
• Sanctuary</font>

Survival of <font color=#FFFF00>Buffer</font> was tested with standard Imprisonment (SPWI910) and if successful with all the others.
Sidenotes: Invisibility spells can be disabled easily, Shield of the Archons absorbs half your caster level (so you need to be a lvl18 cleric for one spell to be absorbed)
----------
So basically as a Ranger Cleric you're screwed :(
If you are high level enough you can try Shield of the Archons, (hope you're not a multi-class). Invisibility will probably be dispelled fast and Sanctuary will only protect you as long as you don't do anything.
There's on hope remaining. If your enemy does not use the Gaxx version you can try to stay out of touch range to avoid the Imprisonment. If he does however you better pray (which probably won't help on a solo/no-reload)
I sincerely hope that I have overlooked something useful, but if not it's gonna be tough/impossible.

[ 10-25-2003, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ]

Why not just use a Scroll of Protection from Magic?

Because that's what Xen excluded in his question
At least I think he did (Protection from Magical Weapons does not hinder Imprisonment so I guess it was a typo). Don't ask me why he doesn't want to use it, Xen works in wondrous ways :D
BTW: Is there any way to bring PfM (scroll) down?
And some other thing that bugged me during testing: Shield of the Archons is supposed to deflect half of the casters level of spells. So for a lvl50 caster (like my test objects) this would be 25 levels. Yet is always dissipated after two Imprisonments (18 levels). Any explanation (I have the lvl50 ruleset from TeamBG in addition to the XP cap remover)

[ 10-25-2003, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ]

In my experience, the Minor Avatar's Spear allows no Saving Throw vs. the Imprisonment, there's simply a pretty small chance per hit that the spell will fire. A scroll of Protection From Magic will be of no help, since it does not block magical weaponry--but by the same token, PfMW will save you. Tough luck for a Ranger/Cleric. Also, Mirror Image will postpone the killing thrust--again, tough luck for a Ranger/Cleric.

The good news: You can buff up with whatever you want, since neither the Avatar nor the Priestess will Dispel or Remove it. Her "Shark-Father's Swift Blessing" is 17 buffing spells (on her) and a Greater Malison (on you). Assuming you've got the Boots of Speed, you can run the Avatar around in circles all you want until the GM (and the Priestess's True Sight) wears off.

The bad news: He's hit only by +3 weapons and up, which means you're stuck with Sunstone Bullets if you're trying to outrange him. Forget about poking him with a 2-handed weapon and running away--his Spear is just as long. But there was that Staff of Thunder and Lightning you picked up in Spellhold....with a chance of Stun on hit.

My Advice: If you're playing No-Reloads, forget the damn Minor Avatar. Be content with the good Cloak and let the sharks keep their cheese.

Hmm, for a no-reloads game the Cloak is very much needed. :D

Thinking back to Aragorn's Story you'll have to use the same tactic I used against Wraith of Wrath. ;)


To Six: Minor Avatar AND Priestess use some sort of Aura of Magic something, that dispels everything and for some time you have 100% spell failure. If you haven't experienced that is becuse maybe that happens only on Insane difficulty. Just speculating though. And I also am not sure how many times they can use it. It might be just one time ability.

Some testing should definately take place before attempting a no-reloads game.

[ 10-26-2003, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: Leslie ]

That does it! I'm installing tactics so I can constructively participate in discussions like this one.
Well, I guess I pick up my BGT solo monk project before, but then it's tactics and more accurate testing from me I promise [img]smile.gif[/img]

Memory's rusty, but wouldn't killing the Priestess suffice if you just want the cloak? With the Boots of Speed I'm sure there's some way to dispose of her while keeping out of harms way from the avatar. I imagine the Avatar is way out of your league with the item and spell selection you currently have, so skip, if you can.

On the other hand, the C/R does have a few spells that could work if you do want to kill him. Since melee combat is out of the question with his Imprisonment ability, I'd say your one shot is to hit him from out of range, right? The level 6 spell Fire Seeds is one way, they aren't stopped by MR and hit as +6 weapons, though I doubt you can amass enough to kill him without sleeping, (maybe you can find a way to break away from his hunt and rest in mid-combat?) they do pitiful damage and are mostly useful in combination with Deathblow. Alternatively, if you have some HLA's, a few Implosions should pack enough punch to kill him, it ignores MR, so if you got it, it's a sure shot.

Wow, where have you been Rataxes ?
Haven't seen (hmm, read) you for a long time ...

Very good point there you have. I forgot about Implosion ignoring MR so that's another one to remember. ;)

Never left. I check out these forums every day, just rarely find the time to make any proper posts :(

A brief visit to IMPSAHA.ITM reveals that his Swallow Whole effect (implemented via Imprisonment) has a 25% of firing on any given hit, bypasses MR, and allows a save vs. death/poison at -8. A potion of +20 saves should suffice. Good luck.

I know i will be killed fot this thread necromancy but Weimer has made MaoS tricky. Fire Seed do ingonre MR but he has 100 resistance to Fire so that would be pretty much useless.

ADD]Ducks for cover! [img]graemlins/hidesbehindsofa.gif[/img]

[ 11-10-2003, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Xen ]

So the CORRECT answer is: Nerf the weapon, not even Irenicus has such dumb powers. I for one have uninstalled some of the tactic's components and nerfed some items simply because you can make gameplay TOO unfair as well.

Hmmm....I wonder if it would be fair to go into IEEP and make one little change....and check the box marked "droppable."
Or perhaps do the same thing with the sword used by the Dwarven Kensai in Improved Kangaxx--the one that forces victims to Save vs. Death (-8 penalty as well, I suppose) with each hit, or be instantly chunked. I wonder if making that item droppable would swing the odds dramatically in my favor?

Funny how that one little box can tell you so much about how overpowered something is. :D

So--even though Sahuagin, as water-dwelling creatures, actually have a negative resistance to Fire damage, their god is actually immune to it. Okay, glad we've got that sorted out now...

SoS, would it be fair if you got Ilasera's bow in Ascension?

Would it be fair? No. Is it fair that Illasera has it to begin with? No.

I'm not sure exactly what her Bow does, all I know is that I never ever want to be on the recieving end of it again. But look at Illasera, character-wise: Is she very powerful because she's the child of a god, and can use her strength and skill to hunt down the mightiest creatures in the Realms? Or is she very powerful because she happened to pick up this incredibly kickass Bow? How would we feel about a character who hacked himself the KILLSW01 the instant he left Candlekeep? In short, are you fighting her, or her [/i]weapon?[/i]

The fact that it's Undroppable is another issue. In my opinion, the only items that should be undroppable are the ones that confer innate properties of that creature type (such as a Troll's Regeneration) or that specific creature (such as the Chinchilla's really high Resistances). *ALL* other items should be Dropped--Zhivago's Full Plate+2, the Minor Avatar's Spear, Illasera's Bow, all the crap that Kuroisan carries, etc. (Well, maybe Kuroisan is an exception, since Weimer made him in response to "Well, a Kensai->Mage with all the best equipment is <u>unkillable!</u>", and not out of some sadistic perversion of his own.)

As for the response of "Being able to use the Avatar's Spear and Illasera's Bow would make the PC overpowered," just tone down the weapon, and improve the creature itself to compensate. Give the Avatar the ablity to cast Maze (duration: 300 hours, ignores Magic Resistance), and give him a droppable +4 Spear of Bleeding. Boost Illasera's melee skills (so she won't be rendered impotent by Physical Mirror), Resistances, and Saves, and tone her Bow down to the level of things like the Runehammer, or Gram the Sword of Grief, or whatever.

[ 11-12-2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

Hmm Six,are you willing to prepare something similar? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

Hmm....well, since Item Rebalancing just might contain things such as Illasera's bow and the final Boss's Spear, it's definitely a possibility. (But, of course, it's irrelevant if the Spear is droppable or not, because--who would you use it on? ;) )

Don`t know. It doesn`t matter. You could leave the Spear but the Bow you can make it droppable...

You are fighting Ilasera and the Bow. I mean, if she was a puny thief, then it wouldn't be that hard; she wouldn't have any fighter HLA's, and she's have less HPs. But the Bow makes her harder. What's the difference between upgrading the enemy and upgrading the weapon? Well, if you upgrade the enemy, and downgrade the weapon, even if Ilasera drops every single last thing down, at the end of the day, you get a Gram-equivalent Bow. I mean, the creature isn't any harder, but you get a pretty darn good Bow, even if you downgrade it.