After getting my teeth sunk into some mods and reading the Who should I take...thread (wow didnt that one go off track), theres something that i have started to realise. Its that these mods only seem to be concerned with beefing up monters and power gaming, something that doesnt keep me entertained on its own. Things like giving monsters new abilities that make no sense, encounters that make no sense, powerful monsters in ridiculous places (lich in the docks with no explanation, 3 dragons in small teeth pass) and weapons/npcs that throw balance out the window of a 50 story building screeming and kicking all the way down to the hard adamantite blow.

Wheres the RPG mods i ask? Wheres the mods with *IMAGINATIVE* quests with branching paths to completion, wheres the finely balanced weapons, wheres the plausible monsters with some logic to their abilities, wheres the balanced NPCs where dialogue *actually* affects their developement, wheres the mods that are playable by the casual gamer and wheres the mods that are, heaven forbid, *original and creative*? Whats your opinion on the matter?

[ 05-26-2003, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: dragon_lord ]

I have to disagree. The monsters and encounters in the unmodded game are just no challenge after a few times, not even for most casual-gamers. At least with tactics installed enemies tend to act more believably.

ALthough I wish bandits would quit attacking me. They should know me by now. I have killed rather a lot.

And there are mods the aim to do what your asking for, the imoen romance for example. But its a lot harder to write dialogue than it is to script a big fight, so such mods are less common.

There are mods what are disbalancing the game. I have such troubles right now. I do relize that making a mod is not an easy task (i have some expirience making maps for Half-life and maps for Heroes of might and magic III ), but it'll be good idea someone more experienced with IE mods making to establish a list where the people can say what they think of this or that mod so the authors may read and make better mods. And so when s.o. novice like me wants to install some mods he'll be 'prepared'.

Well, you can discuss most mods at their particular forums. Most of them are here, here and here.

Ignoring the encounters and special abilities... the Solaufein Mod does does a good job in terms of the romance dialogue. The encounters, items and special abilities are of course... another matter. *cough* *cough*

Kelsey is argubly the best NPC Mod out there, with no game-breaking items and stuff, and enjoyable dialogue. There's more roleplay than powerplay in this mod. Just my opinion though. As a plus, female characters can romance him.

The Ritual is actually a very well done mod. It is difficult, but not to the point where it makes casual gamers want to slit their wrists. [img]tongue.gif[/img] I found it very enjoyable, and probably one of the better balanced Weimer-made mods.

The Improved Bandits is another balanced mod. True... their frequency is kinda unrealistically high, but unless your party is half-dead, naked and have no spells, you should be able to handle them at any time.

The Lich in the Docks is an awesome fight( very few fights instill awe in me( more so when I realise the modder did not cheat left and right), so kudos to GB for this) with one fatal flaw. Why in the 9 Hells did he choose that location? This mod would have been better named, "The Fight For The Balduran Cloak". ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Improved Kangaxx finally restores some dignity to Kangaxx. It's well done, though... I have some other ideas in mind.

Improved Twisted Rune is still a joke. I still feel the difficulty can be reasonably raised without exceeding the realm of reason. People should suffer before they get rewarded with the Staff of Magi. As it is... a level 13 Kensai with some choice scrolls can slice and dice his way to victory without losing any HP.

Improved Guarded Compound, see Improved Twisted Rune, just replace SotM with CFury.

Improved Ilynich. HAHAHAHA! http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/nut.gif Okay, now that that is out of my system... while this mod is doable, it must be noted that it was done as a joke. I cannot really recommend this mod in good conscience.

Item Upgrades: I play without the Item Upgrades Mod. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Well, I got it installed so that I can see what the heck people are talking about when they discuss the items, but on principle and as a challenge, I do not use them.

Red Badge Encounter: Tough, but doable. A tad unfair in some aspects, but not toooo much. With a few little tweaks though, this mod might become widely acceptable.

Gnome Illusionist: I could rant over a year just dissing the pair of Mephits shooting out level 8 counterspells like a gatling gun, but the short version is...

... Riiggghhhhttttt

Improved Irenicus: It is doable, but the total loss of items in the second round is horrifying and kinda cheap. Monks will most probably shrug it off, but Clerics will weep. That is about the only big complaint I have about it.

Minor issues include the infinite spells that JI has. Waiting for him to deplete his spells is not an option. Not to mention his infinite contingencies.

Did I leave out any?

Although the final battle is the most oft-discussed aspect, many people find the dialogue options to be the big draw of the Ascension mod. If you like it, you may also go for Redemption. Those both give role-playing choices. Tashia doesn't come with any massive fights (that I recall), so she's mostly roleplaying. Compton has some lovely NPC flirtpacks for the canon NPCs -- that will add more roleplaying. Many people think that the Imp Thief Stronghold adds some flavor for rogues.

Indeed, though it gets sort of boring since there are about 6 or 7 groups of nearly the exact same enemies. Im not complaining though, ive tried modding(very little though), and know that it is very hard, so im in awe of how many excellent mods Weimer and co. have made!

Am I the only person who likes Improved Illych? Solo sorceror on insane, it was tough but it wasnt one of those fights that seems completely impossible. Although its definately not one for the casual gamer. The reward is nice as well, for the summon-heavy player. Although I didnt notice it until shortly before I had to give it back.

Dundee, yes, you did leave out something. Kuroisan, the Acid Kensai. [img]smile.gif[/img]

He was a real pain-in-butt for me, mostly because I was unprepared (had no spells what so ever, my fighter/tanks were half-dead already). I had to cheat to kill him but I didn't keep the Sanchooku (spelling?) because I felt I didn't deserve it.

I enjoyed the Tashia mod quite a bit.

She can lean a bit to power gaming but what I really enjoyed was the many RP options with her.

Her dialog options don’t just have a good alignment response, a neutral and an evil response but often a wide variety of responses that actually require you to think about what you are saying. And your responses to her dialogs have long term consequences to your relationship with her.

She actually role plays her good alignment and gets after you if your responses to her or to situations are too violent and while I have never tried picking her up while playing an evil character I do not believe she would go with an evil party.

Ah yes, the Acid Kensai. I have yet to encounter him due to my loathing of CFury( I sell CFury [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), so no comments about him.

I have not tried Tashia, so no comments about her either.

Ascension is indeed another well done mod. Bringing ToB closer to what the game developers had in mind( mainly because it was made by one of the game developers).

I never found the need to install the Improved Thief Stronghold because as it is, I think the current Thief Stronghold is interesting already, and one of the best Strongholds in the game.

andrewas, any Mage/Sorcerer/Bard will laugh with glee in the II Mod, but for other solos, it will not be a walk in the park.

Granted, it is still possible, but do not expect to steamroll over them like you did with your solo Sorcerer.

Have to disagree about that, the high-level Bandit encounters are pure nightmares on Insane. Far from easy even if you're very high-level and prepared for them, they can easily kill your party, or at least create some major chaos if you're caught by surprise. Arrows of Dispelling, sequenced Flame Arrows, friggin' Maze traps! :mad:
They're still immense fun though [img]smile.gif[/img]

My only problem with this mod is the Counter-attack Project Force. It's as cheesy as cheese gets, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, far worse than Bodhi's undispellable fire shields (at least you can resist those).

My favourite mod. Always has been, always will be ;)

I think it was a lot harder (thus more fun) before they were given that patrolling script though, now it's even possible to beat them completely without using cheese yourself :( ;)

[ 05-26-2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

no, you most definately are not

Dundee:
The Improved Bandits is another balanced mod.

Not entirely. Unless my version is broken, or out of date, I strongly disagree with their AI.

Case in point: Solo char, hidden in shadows, walks through a bandit spawn point. Bandits pop up; I don't alert them. I walk over to Am Si (Tirdir's "Man in Red") and begin hassling him. The usual dialogue ensues and I fight with his two accomplaces outside. The bandits show up in short order.

It's not a stretch to say they could've heard the commotion and come to investigate. So, from a RPing point of view, I can buy that. But when I run away, activate my Ring of Air Control, and they STILL follow me without dispelling my invisibility... THEN I have a problem with them. That's asanine. (Note they don't attack while I'm invisible. They just hang around waiting for my invis to wear off.)


-Lem

See we have plenty of tough battle mods for 'hardcore' (people who are basically experts, know practically everything) players, but where are the mods for 'casual' (people who have been through the game a couple of times and know a fair bit about the game) players? I dont mind playing the odd mod with tough battles, but that seems to be all there is. Im this |--| close to seriously learning how to script and making my own mods, but i dont have the time (year 12-> exams)

...

Dungeon-Be-Gone is the ultimate casual-player mod because it gets you into the meat of the game quicker.

Although sorcerers are powerful and Kelsey is no exception, I would not consider Kelsey "powergamey." And he doesn't come with mandatory nightmarish tactical encounters or anything.

NPC Flirt Packs add don't cause a single hit point to be lost.

Tashia has a superpowerful summon and the infamous "amulet of power" fight, but she has a romance a lot of people like. While Solaufein has Moon(blade|ray) and a couple of notoriously difficult fights, he actually has more banter than almost any other NPC available in-game, mod or stock.

You're just not looking very hard, and moaning rather dramatically about it.

Challenging tactics mods are, in my opinion and observation, easier to create than satisfying role-playing mods. But the fact that Weimer Tactics has 3,000 components doesn't mean there aren't roleplaying mods for BG2.

[ 05-26-2003, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: jcompton ]

It's hard to make a "roleplaying" mod because most of the roleplaying in BG2 is done by the player behind the character, and not the game.

You make it sound like you like being a casual gamer and not one for Tactics Insane Do-Not-Reload Anything games. Instead of seeking variety where battles are concerned, go for character.

Every great adventure starts with something odd.

</font>

• A party consisting of the Great Forgotten NPCs: PC, Haer'Dalis, Valygar, Nalia, Korgan, untried romantic interest.</font>
• A ranger wakes up in Chateau Irenicus with grandmastery in dual-wielding daggers.</font>
• Dwarven monks take up residence in Athkatla to solve the town's troubles.</font>
• Play with Shadowkeeper and make yourself a wyrmling (baby dragon) PC.</font>

The possibilities are out there. You don't have to rely on the talents of Jason, Wesley, and Kevin to make your dreams come true. ;)

[ 05-26-2003, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Pirengle ]

I don't know. It seems to me that the romances are sort of roleplaying too. I mean, if you have a gift for calming down elves that have lost their wings, then by all means, romance Aerie.

The mods are pretty much to add more content to the game. Quests, IMO, are harder to make than you might imagine. You have to plan for pretty much everything, make an interesting plot, and also include some roleplaying opportunity. It's hard. Just look at the Return to Windspear Mod- I don't know when it's going to come out, but it's been in development for some time. Granted, I really want to use that mod if or when it finally comes out.

Adding individual fights are quite a bit easier. Find an area previously unused, stick in X number of enemies in it, put them in some spots, equip them, then put in the AI. It's not exactly simple... but it's a hell of a lot easier than doing a quest.

Now, the Ritual is more of hack 'n slash type 'quest' than a roleplaying one. You really don't have much choice here. You either kill the Countess, or you stop her. There's only two ways out of here.

NPC's... Oh boy. Theoretically, it's easy to put in a boring NPC. Now, try putting in a NPC with decent, yet not powergaming stats, an interesting story behind it, interesting banter with everyone, voicing, romance (optional, but it really adds to a character), as well as some goodies sprinkled here and there. As in, you might have a couple of events that happen when you have the character in your party, and that you can resolve using numerous ways. Now, that is quite a bit trickier. Also, there are bugs...

I have played the tashia and solaufein mods. Solaufein may have alot of dialogue but personally i didnt like him as an NPC. Call me picky, but he just didnt do it for me - his philosophical attitude towards everything (is black really black i think one of them was? I mean it just didnt feel like a romance. He does stuff like that all the time aswell) is what gets me. I quite liked tashia's dialogue, but fit in with the game setting it did not. I have tried out the NPC Flirt pack. Yes it does add a bit more depth to romances, but it only goes skin deep. I have played your mod also, skipping that boring dungeon is great for any one who has played through the game a few times. But wouldnt an RPGing mod add a bit of spice. You know add some good side quests, maybe a new NPC, change a few monsters that make sense (so new tactics needed and not llyich level hardness) to make the dungeon interesting so you wouldnt want to skip it? If a modder cant come up with some new ideas, why not just post on a forum such as this? Im sure plenty of people have ideas on quests etc. And they should be open to suggestions and improvements on existing mods, im ALWAYS after feed back on my site so it can be improved. Moaning dramatically? I try my best, got to keep my moaning at least half entertaining you know ;) . I realise making the kind of mod im after isnt easy, but then again is anything worth doing easy i ask you?

Okay, so it's a mod that did everything you asked for, it simply didn't do it in the fashion you asked for.
I agree with you there.
I claim no ownership to DBG. I helped on the tech side and I did Jasper's voice, but Victoria Joyner wrote it.
Yes. There is no shortage of Idea Men telling modders what they should be doing.

Warning - being sarcastic in this one
and spoilerish (mostly IWD2 though)
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Why does anyone do powergamer-mods at all? For all the powergamers there's ToB
and most importantly IWD2 with lots of cheesy weapons, enemies with for more than 200HP ...

Hey to all you who try to get invincible by casting several spells - in IWD2 there's Aegis the spell that gives you Stoneskin, immunity to all elemental damage,Glode of Invulnerability, ... does it all in once the ultimate you can't touch me spell.
And there's the Club of Disruption that (with allowing saves though) slays not only undead but also Elementals and all kinds of demons. And you won't even have to run around the whole game and fetch parts for Cromwell like with CromFaeyr, it's right there in chapter 2!
Looking for a kickass weapon for your Paladin? Fight for it as if it was for your survival? No, just walk up to that stone in Watcher's Keep and pick it up.
And there's improved enemies with HP and attack rolls that would make Firkraag jealous to the extreme. Anybody ever noticed that a lot of enemies in ToB (and IWD2 of course) have more HP than a RED DRAGON?
So if you want to hack and slash your way to victory don't alter SoA just switch the game!

ToB is not significantly harder than SoA.

Neither is IWD2 come to that, I suspect most of the apparent difficulty comes from having to learn a new ruleset and of course the different spell list. As for enemies that have more HP than a red dragon - HP dont really matter. I can knock more than 1000 off of anything in less than three rounds, unless its smart enough to defend itself. Which is where tactics mod comes in.

I didn't say it was harder. It's just more hack and slash. With bigger/tougher enemies and bigger/tougher weaponry. Less plot-based and more fighting in a style I personally dislike.
HP matter to me roleplaying-wise. I just don't like the idea of some not-so-smart not-so-big worm being physically tougher than a mighty drake.

I realise that, if i had scripting skills i would make my dreams come true [img]smile.gif[/img] . With that though your essentially your playing through the same events - just from a slightly different angle which isnt going to make the game that much more interesting. Especially when role playing options arent available to you. For instance would a pally really side with the Shadow Thieves (of course he wouldnt ever side with Bodhi) and be forced to help a criminal organisation? Or would he seek help through another means? And theres still much RPG fun to be had when we get to Ust'Natha. Good RPG mods would give you the choice to do such things. Or perphaps when playing an evil character when siding with Bodhi you could attempt (ie you fail) to usurp her leadership of the vamp guild. Im sure someone who could destroy bodhi and was a child of bhaal would gain respect from vampires quite quickly so its not unreasonable. This is why i believe to achieve good RPGing in bg2 we need mod makers willing to do the hard task of making quests with different paths to completion (heres an idea: How about learning new abilities from completing quests. Eg: A pally takes the good option and gets immunity to wing buffet etc. That way you might actually care which route you take in a quest) or coming up with different paths to brynnlaw.

You know, I use almost none of the mods, and I'm still quite happy.
Folks who have been through the game even once have a huge advantage...simply being forewarned is an overwhelming advantage. The kits in BG2 also give huge advantages... if things get a little bit on the Twinkie side, it's very easy to:

Not use a bunch of extrapowerful items...

I would definitely spend some lunchtimes making code for item and spell mods, though I'm hopeless with graphics, if I could learn the system -- though I've no real desire to start CLUA-ing my game experience to death. I definitely lean towards the idea that magic items should be minor, but interesting.

But you know what? Until I actually get off my arse and start learning how the code works, who am I too gripe because a bunch of twinkies want to extend and enhance the capacity of the game they like, or because a bunch of guys busting their humps for free haven't done things to my specs?

Here comes my two cents. After taking a break from the game for a while the mods are part of the reason why I'm so back. That's right baby I'm back, and the first topic I go to is one about mods. So I definately think they are one of the best parts of the game and the reason I repeatedly play. As far as the role-playing vs. powergaming aspect I think each perspective is addressed in the mods. I'm not an expert on either one but isn't adding your own bit of realism the whole idea of role-playing? I mean, the battles and enemies are tougher but you don't necessarily have to see them through. I remember reading someone's post about hightailing it out of the city upon running into Kurosian until they were of a higher level to come back. Or just giving him what he wants. If the difficulty of the battles is going overboard just take the difficultly setting down a notch. Having more powerful items in the game doesn't mean you have to use them.

The only problem I've ever had with any of the mods I've tried are bugs and hey, we don't live in a perfect world now do we. And speaking of mods does anyone know about the Improved Battles Mod that is supposed to be released today, I think. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I've thought of playing through the game as a chicken. The idea arose when I dominated a chicken, saw spell slots, CTRL-Q'ed it and discovered it was a mage! :D

Or, you could, with some inginuity, play as a beastmaster and have animals at your side. No spell-casting chickens though! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I might do that in my new came. A solo as a chicken/sorceror! Imagine this....
SPOILERS

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Final battle. 4 demons and a slayer, versus a chicken! YEAH! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Now I cannot imagine this,but i I try i see one toasted chicken. :D

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

But what if the Chicken was born with the innate ability to cast magic? It it happens to humans (Sorcerors) why can't it happen to chickens? ;)

Well, because the game says that sorcerer's ancestor was a powerful being, perhaps a dragon. And I cannot imagine a hen saying:
"Hello, I am Quack the roostermage and my grandpa was a red dragon called Udhhiilssllaaasllsaskk'saseek the Magnificent."

except the chicken would be the protaganist. And last time i checked bhaal qualifies as a powerful being. he got it one with a dragon, why not a chicken?

[ 06-01-2003, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: Angelousss ]

You're right.
There is another interesting animal in the Marching Mountains (ToB).
That Bhaal is a weird fellow...

You're getting my point. It is feasable that Bhaal mated with a chicken and had a chicken child. All the bhaalspawns (Apart from maybe the protagonist) are human/half human. And if a half human dragon looks like a proper dragon why can't a half human chicken? ;)

MILD TOB SPOILERS

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Where does she get that idea? Dragons, Fire Giants, Drows, and she thinks the elf is an abomination? :rolleyes:

Just to nitpick slightly, the game manual says....
That not only backs up the point about Sorcerors being descended from gods, it says that it is thought they have a powerful ancestor. That by no means means (Bad sentence, I know. ;) ) that it is true. They could just be a normal human.