Pretty obvious topic [img]tongue.gif[/img]

My cleric/ranger is a little undecided. I mean, FoA brings some nice perks.. but Fulcrum has grandmastery and slivers ... as far as I can tell Fulcrum is dealing more damage.

Soooo, let loose with the club and switch when mages pop up .. or keep FoA in my main hand ?

I'm pretty sure Jim or Alson calculated this sometime [img]tongue.gif[/img] .. come on .. share the love [img]graemlins/shine.gif[/img]

[ 05-13-2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: daan ]

I believe it was Dundee who did a boatload of math demonstrating that FoA is the most devastating weapon in the game. Of course I can no longer find the link to that impressive piece of gamesmanship. FoA damage is linked to its elemental damage and the fact that it will slow opponents when hit.

When I am playing a Ranger/Cleric I always use it in my main hand.
If I am not using it my best warrior always is. True you have to assign a proficiency slot to flails for Minsc, Valygar or Anomen to use it but it is devastating in their hands

Tiny spoiler:
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~
~
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in ToB you will be able to upgrade FoA by adding two new heads making it a +5 weapon.

Yep. This is how it goes with R/C:

Mace of Disruption - Undead dead
Flail of Ages - mage dead
Crom Faeyr - golem dead
Fulcrum - everyone else dead :D

True enough,... but as Fulcrum is a modded weapon I'm not sure if it was considered with respect to the calculations ...
Dundee ? [img]graemlins/angel.gif[/img]

Eh? Too late at night( or early in the morning if you will) for me to go number crunching. I will see what I can do tomorrow. I am assuming your FoA is the +3 enchanted version, because I highly doubt the +5 version can be defeated.

[img]graemlins/dance2.gif[/img] Didnt mean to imply for you to start number crunching. Just if you had already considered the Fulcrum. But hey :D Ask for a dollar, receive a million .. good enough for me ;)

Fulcrum +4 beats even FoA +5 damage-wise as long as GWW isn't being used, and you're not fighting True Neutrals ;) Though I can imagine a solo R/C using GWW quite a lot, it's still not something you can have active all the time, base APR does matter, even post-GWW.

Cool. Looking forward for some math from the experts. ;)

My solo R/C Aragorn is now deep in TOB (in Amkethran) and deciding whether to go left or right. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Where do you find fulcrum +4? I don't remember discovering this weapon, is it from a mod?

Yes, from a Item Upgrade mod. Combined Gnasher and Bone Club.

Ok, if you want one. But I'm telling you, Fulcrum deals more damage than FoA ;)

FoA +5 vs Fulcrum
Assumptions: Class is multiclassed R/C, lvl is 13+, GM patch is installed, weapons are single-wielded (no style bonuses), STR is 19, character is wearing GoES

My reason for having them single-wield the weapons but disregard single style bonuses, is that it's probable that you're going to want to dual-wield (especially being a Ranger), but the number of possible dual-wielding combinations makes it impractical to make a comparison. I only want to compare the powers of these two weapons alone, and I don't want one of the weapons (Fulcrum) to benefit from single style bonuses that they in practice will probably never have.

FoA +5
Base Damage: 1d6 + 6 + 7 + 2 + 2 = 20.5
Elemental Damage: 10
APR: 3
Average Damage per Hit, assuming 5% critical hits/misses: 0.9(20.5 + 10) + 0.05(2 * 20.5 + 10) + 0.05 * 0 = 27.45 + 2.55 + 0 = 30
Average Damage per Round: 30 * 3 = 90

Now for Fulcrum, to eliminate the need for several calculations, I will estimate that approximately 60% of all enemies in the game are either lawful/chaotic good, or evil, while 35% has the word neutral in their alignment, and 5% are True Neutrals. This makes the average alignment based extra damage: 0.6 * 8 + 0.35 * 4 + 0.05 * 0 = 6.2, I'll round it down to 6 since my estimations are probably a bit off anyhow.

Fulcrum +4
Base Damage: 1d6 + 4 + 6 + 7 + 5 + 2 = 27.5
Special Damage: 2 extra pts of damage per round per hit
APR: 4
Average Damage per Hit, once again, assuming 5% critical hits/misses: 0.9 * 27.5 + 0.05 * 2 * 27.5 + 0.05 * 0 = 24.75 + 2.75 = 27.5
Average Damage per Round: 27.5 * 4 + 4 * 2 = 118

Fulcrum outdoes FoA by quite a bit when we do not take GWW into consideration as you can see. Fulcrum will still outdo FoA if you just use Haste or Imp Haste, and adding more STR or other external damage sources, will boost Fulcrum's total damage much more than FoA's, due to the higher APR.

However, what happens when we do use GWW?

FoA +5
APR: 10
Average Damage: 30
Total Average Damage: 30 * 10 = 300

Fulcrum +4
APR: 10
Average Damage: 27.5
Special: 2 extra pts of damage per round per hit
Total Average Damage: 27.5 * 10 + 2 * 10 = 295

FoA wins, although it is a very close victory.
Still, the main feature of FoA is not it's brute damage, but it's spell-disrupting elemental powers and it's slowing ability. These two combined makes FoA a clear victor over Fulcrum when you're using GWW.

However, Fulcrum is in general the better choice. Only use FoA +5 when either
1) fighting Stoneskinned mages
2) Using GWW

And, obviously, you will not have FoA until the very end of ToB, while you can get Fulcrum before even doing 10% of the game. Any version of FoA but the final +5 incarnation is of course vastly inferior to Fulcrum damage-wise ;)

[ 05-13-2003, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

Hmmm I thought so thanks for the confirmation leslie.

Erm... Fulcrum does not do the extra stackable Slow (and all of the cool stuff associated with that), as well as the fact that the numbers taht you crunched assumed that the person has the Grand Mastery patch installed. Even so, when single-wielding, FoA has 2.5 ApR, while Fulcrum will have 3.5 ApR.

(1 base + 1/2 Specialization + 1 Grand Mastery + 1/2 level 7 Warrior + 1/2 lvel 13 Warrior) That means that Fulcrum will win by a more sizable margin...

Also, in order to obtain the Bone Club, you must have been in Spellhold, and thus, you will have to finish the Underdark and such before you can forge it. That's more taht 10% of the game. More like 30% or so.

[ 05-13-2003, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

Assuming a Cleric/Ranger. Assuming that the Ranger class is 13+. Assuming Grandmastery Patch. Assuming GoES. Assuming 22 STR. Assuming 20 rounds. Assuming one round of Critical Misses. Assuming one round of Critical Hits. Assuming non-Neutral targets.

Flail of Ages +5:
----

Base ApR = 3

Weapon: 1d6 + 6, average = 9.5 damage +10 elemental damage
Specialisation: +2 damage
GoES: +2 damage
22 STR: +10 damage

Total Average = 23.5 damage + 10 elemental damage
<span style="color: #00FFFF">
20 Rounds = [ ( 23.5 + 10 ) * 3 * 18 ] + { [ ( 23.5 * 2 ) + 10 ] * 3 } = 1980 damage
Average Damage Per Round = 1980 / 20 = 99
Average Damage Per Hit = 99 / 3 = 33

Fulcrum +4
----

Base ApR = 4

Weapon: 1d6 + 8, average = 11.5 damage +8 splinter damage
Grandmastery: +5 damage
GoES: +2 damage
22 STR: +10 damage

Total Average = 28.5 damage + 8 splinter damage
<span style="color: #00FFFF">
20 Rounds = [ ( 28.5 + 8 ) * 4 * 18 ] + { [ ( 28.5 * 2 ) + 8 ] * 4 } = 2888 damage
Average Damage Per Round = 2888 / 20 = 144.4
Average Damage Per Hit = 144.4 / 4 = 36.1


[ 05-14-2003, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Not with GoES they don't ;) Having the GM Patch installed is sort of a given if you want to use the Fulcrum, and since it is part of a semi-official fixpack known as Baldurash, I think it's reasonable to assume that anyone that has access to Fulcrum also has the GM Patch. It's true that Fulcrum doesn't have a slowing effect, and I mentioned this, but this was just a test comparing pure damage/TU, and FoA's slowing does not effect it's damage capabilities, unless you've trouble hitting something.

+1/2 Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization = 4 APR for Fulcrum, and 3 ARP for FoA.

Brynnlaw, Spellhold, Sahuagin City, Ust Natha, Trademeet. That's all you have to do to get Fulcrum. This leaves every single quest available in Chapter 2/3/6, everything in the Underdark not directly related to Ust Natha, the whole of Watcher's Keep, Chapters 6 and 7, and the whole of ToB. Ok, so maybe it's not 10%, but it's still a very small proportion of the game you have to go through.

[ 05-14-2003, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]