I've heard that project image is better. Can someone tell me why? From what I know the two spells are the same except for that you can move around and cast spells with simurcularcum, which you cannot with project image. So how is it really?

p.s: did i spell simurcularcum right? (the white 8level mage spell that makes copy of you)

Simulcrum produces a clone at approx 60% of the casters level, which reduces the number of spells he is able to cast, as well as his fighting ability.

You can cast restoration on a simulcrum to restore the lost levels.

However, project image allows you to a) circumvent the summons limit and b) cast all spells at no 'cost' to you while the original character is uninjured...

So if you hide your character away somewhere sensible and/or make him invisible...

<span style="color: lightblue">But *NOT* lost spells. Look around this place, there's a thread there somewhere that explains why.

Neither of them is superior to the other - they're just different.

A general overview....

Project Image and Simulacrum in General:
</font>

• Both have their own set of spells, so they're a great way of conserving spells and/or multiplying your spells arsenal. Neither can enjoy the benefits of Contingencies and/or Spell Sequencers type spells.</font>
• Both can use their own copies of the caster's items. Duplicate the Pro-Magic scrolls for some cheese fiesta, use your precious Time Stop scrolls without actually wasting them, conjure Summons that will last sooo much longer than the clones who summoned them, etc, etc. This is perhaps the most powerful aspect of the Clone spells, due to the fact the many one-use items are immensely powerful.</font>
• Both ignore the summoning limit of 5. A clone can raise armies of fodder in less than a turn using their own copies of the Wand of Monster Summoning. In additions, they also ignore the traps limit of 7. Carpet monster lairs with traps this way.</font>

Now, to the specifics...

Project Image:
</font>

• The better spellcaster out of the two clones spells. It will hold the original caster (so don't cast one during Time Stop), but the clone has *everything* the original caster had - items and spells.</font>
• The Image will vanish if the original caster takes any damage.</font>
• The Image is vulnerable to both [Dispel, Remove] Magic and True Sight. Thus, casting the appropriate Spell Immunities (Abjuration and Divination, respectively) is a mandatory tactic after the Image is created.</font>
• Casting Project Image causes to the caster to count as Helpless (due to the Hold effect). This leads to the over-the-top-powerful tactic of placing 3 Images in a Chain Contingency, and casting Project Image. Voila! 4 Images, the ultimate BG2 firepower army.</font>
• Shapechanged Images can attack. Bash thy's enemies with Iron Golems!</font>

Simulacrum:
</font>

• Not such a good spellcaster as Project Image, but it won't hold the caster.</font>
• Simulacrum isn't dispellable by any means, nor will it vanish if the caster takes any damage. It's rock solid!</font>
• A Simulacrum is implemented as a level drained clone. Its level is not 60% of the caster's, but is determined as follows:
  --Single-classed mages: Original caster's level - (caster's level / 2)
  --Multiclassed mages: Original caster's level - (caster's level / 2) for each class
  --Dual classed mages: Original caster's level - (caster's total levels / 4)
  
  Rounding is unclear for multiclassed mages, sometimes up, sometimes down. Dual classed mages have a clear advantage here. The bigger the difference between their classes, the less levels the clone loses.</font>
• Due to the way the Simulacrum's level is determined, "second generation" clones are level drained less than their creators. A Simulacrum has a lower level than the original caster, so it imposes less level drain on subsequent Simulacrums. Example: A level 32 wizard (you need an XP Cap remover to get this far) produces a level (32 - 32 / 2) 16 Simulacrum. That Simulacrum would produce a level (32 - 16 / 2) 24 Simulacrum. Later generation clones still inherit their caster's more limited selection of spells and abilities, if any.</font>
• Simulacra of people with warrior levels (created by Fighter/Mages or warriors using Vhailor's Helm) become much more effective after someone casts Lesser Restoration on them to restore their "lost" levels.</font>

That's about it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Simulacrum.

Project Image

True Sight is supposed to dispel Simalucrum. And, I like Project Image better. Don't know why, but it doesn't interfere with my 8th level spell slots (reserved for 1 Spell Trigger and the rest ADHW), and it's a level lower.

Just to clarify, what Alson meant was that Simulacrum is not affected by Dispel Magic or Remove Magic. True Sight will still get rid of it.

I took it as it can not be dispellable by anything, including True Sight. I may be wrong, however. Check out this as well: http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Main.htm Go to the Illusion Overview. It demonstrates that True Sight will not dispel it. Also, while using the spell against the Kangaxx Guardians (they will cast Simulacrum), the Simulacrums were unaffected.

[ 05-07-2003, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

Hmmmm? Was I witnessing Mislead clones then? Or maybe they were Project Image clones... If the Spell References says they are not affected by True Sight, then I guess I will have to trust them on this one.

By the way, the direct link is this one, Click Here.

ADD] Although if I want to be a pendant, Death Spell will definitely kill any clones. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 05-07-2003, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Indeed, we stated that Simulacrum isn't vulnerable to True Sight. This was thoroughly tested. In short, Simulacrum is just as solid as any summon - it's there until killed (but the PC tends to be hard to kill), until expires or until Death Spell'd. If it helps you, you can call Simulacrum "Summon Level Drained Me"... but that just sounds useless. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Ah, but since it and PI are the only Summons that can cast SI: Necromancy, maybe it's possible to use Summons against Beholders after all!

Perhaps, but Death Ward doesn't help against Death Spell for summons (in my experience, that is), so why would SI: Necromancy?

Because SI takes a higher precedence than Death Spell (I hope.) Death Spell states that it kills all Summoned creatures, regardless of Hit Dice or immunities. Death Ward counts as an "immunity," and therefore gets toasted by Death Spell. But with SI: Necromancy, no spells of the Necromantic school can affect the character at all.

Eww. No healing magic? That make's one think twice about using that spell.

You would think so... but no. ;) As far as I know, this has been tested more than a few times - and Spell Immunity : Necromancy helped diddly-squat vs. Death Spell. For the record, though, I must say that I havn't tested it personally.

:runs around the room, tearing his hair out:

Oh look at it this way. ;) Clones are badly exploited as it is already. No need to make them even more exploitable. ;)

I don't really care about clone cheese, I'd just like to finally have some Summons that can actually hold their own against Beholderkin. As it is now, I can either use Demons, or wait until ToB levels, and even those summons quickly get zapped all over the place.

[offtopic]

Am I the only one who has gone through a BG2 game without using clone spells over level 2?

[/offtopic]

EDIT: This is what I would've added before hitting the post button too early. Do you people actually use weapons to hit things over the head? Or are clones just cute support skills for solo mages?

[ 05-10-2003, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Pirengle ]

My current party is:
Fletcher (Elven Archer)
Korgan
Mazzy
Montaron
Keldorn
Valygar
If we didn't use weapons to hit things over the head, we would be in DEEP trouble. But even we like using Clones: Before we take out Kangaxx, we're going to go buy Vhailor's Helm. Best dang Summon in the game! Simulacrum is not really as cheesy as it sounds--Sure, you can get your spells back with the old Spell Trap trick, but the spell was intended to give you a Summon that can fight alongside you--not instead of you. Project Image is on a whole other exponential level of cheese.

Even with the Improved Beholders installed, my 1 Planetar pasted the ambush over the bridge, with all of those Beholders and Gauths.

Minor ToB HLA Spoiler
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Fun things to do with your Planetar. Cast Globe of Blades, then burn things to Hell with Firestorm. Fight the enemy at the edge of the Firestorm( you will need to micromanage your Planetar here) so that they rip and burn as they try to do battle with your Planetar.

Throw in a few Earthquakes now and then, and maybe some Insect Plagues.

If you restore those levels, has he spells memorized or are they consumed just like when you restore after a vampire bites you and level drains you?


BTW: Almost cheesy tactic.
You are ambushed and overhelmed. Cast Mislead. Now they start fighting your mislead and he will die soon unless ... you cast invisibility upon him. Now they can't see anything and you can placidly cast your spells to take them down. Used this with my Blade at the Drizzt encounter to kill his companions and face him one-on-one.