I've noticed in some of the threads that some experts say that they don't use some items which are too cheesy:
Cloak of Mirroring, Staff of The Magi, Upgraded Impaler, Bloodbane

also

cheesy spells - Project Image then summon everything you can and repeat

also Endless spell strategy (PI refilling you with Spell Trap on)

So what do you use and don't you use (anymore ;) ) ?

Me - I don't use PI to bring my lost spells back and use it only once to summon something

I don't use Cloak of Mirroring - except if everything else fails (hasn't happened yet)

I haven't tried Upgraded Impaler and only tried Bloodbane once or twice.

You ?

I don`t used PI`s anymore becuase it is TOO boring,i still use the Cloak of Mirroring sometimes...I use SoTM just for being invisible...Have`nt tried Upgraded Impaler yet
Cheers [img]smile.gif[/img]
Xen

[ 04-22-2003, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Xen ]

Improved Kitthix
Soul Reaver+6
Gloves of the Master Thief
Azuredge+4 for its Disruption hits (although I do like it and the MoD+2 solely for their NPP)
PfU scrolls
PfM scrolls
SoTM for its Invisibility cheese

My first time through SoA I had a Monk, and used the Cloak of Mirroring. I haven't used the cloak since because it got boring at the end of the game. Playing games like bounce the flame arrows with enemy mages (they always lose because their spell deflection wears off after a few rounds while the cloak is permanent) just wasn't much fun after awhile.

So far I haven't finished the game with a mage as my main character, so I haven't gotten much into the infinite spells and PI problems much. When I did use Edwin at high levels, I didn't use PIs to recharge, and self-enforced a total summoning limit of 5. Usually I didn't even get that high because with a PI, I had enough of an arsenal to magic most things to death without summons.

Lately, I am trying to uncheese my play even more by avoiding the abuse of blue circles. Now I make myself be honest about my intentions during dialogues (Yes, Mr. Dragon, I really am going to kill you now...). I do allow some combat preps if the CHARACTERS know what's coming, but not battlefield positioning and preemptive strikes using traps or quasi-combat spells (magic resistance, charms, etc). I mean, who wouldn't count it as hostile for someone to start lobbing charm spells at their group? Or to draw melee weapons and surround a mage? I do allow my thieves to sneak in and go for the backstab, but that's more reasonable. Sometimes I force myself to use Invisibility instead of hide in shadows, if there is no realistic way for the thief to sneak into position (inside a private room, no cover available, etc.)

ITEMS
</font>

• Cloak of Mirroring</font>
• Staff of the Magi</font>
• Mace of Disruption</font>
• Protection from Magic</font>
• Protection from Undead</font>
• Azuredge</font>
• Improved Kitthix</font>
• Reflection Shield</font>
• Girdle of Glory</font>
• Preserving Boots</font>
• Sanchuudoku</font>
• Bloodbane</font>
• Vhailor's Helm</font>
• Gloves of the Master Thief</font>
• Blackrazor</font>

SPELLS
</font>

• Project Image</font>
• Simulacrum</font>
• Imprisonment</font>

GENERAL
</font>

• Don't use multiple potions for stacked effects</font>
• Don't sell & re-sell items to black market dealers</font>
• Don't copy items</font>
• No Fake-talk</font>

Probably forgotten a few more personal rules ;) I wish I could say I didn't use the Shield of Balduran, but I frankly don't think I would've had the guts to clear out the Beholder Lairs in my current NRS games without it, even though the mean buggers are still quite dangerous what with their ridiculous THAC0, Poison attacks and Anti-Magic Rays that bars me from spell-casting. :mad:

[ 04-22-2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

I doubt game designers and creaters would have put items into the game if they saw it as cheap or a way to cheat. Cloak of Mirroring isn't a cheasy item, take this for example. It only deflects offensive spells, not spells like Symbol Stun, or Power Word Silence so there's still a good chance it'll be useless in a wizard battle. Staff of the Magi also isn't that bad. It adds to a mage's AC to help them in heated combat and equipped Invisibility isn't all that great considering most magical creatures like liches and dragons can see through them. You even have to wait through most of the game to gain these items, so see them as well earned rewards instead of cheese.

Nothing is cheesy, you will soon learn young grasshopper :D

Right, such items basically zap every ounce of challenge from the game and leave nothing for the player. Hence, I don't use them [img]smile.gif[/img] I don't mind if people like walking around immune to spell damage, or being invulnerable to all but those 5% who can see the invisible, but it's not my own personal idea of fun. As has been said on another thread, neither cheats nor cheese is the main concern, ones own enjoyment is...

[ 04-22-2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

First time I ever seen the Shield of Reflection called cheesy... I mean, I only find it useful three times: In the Sahuagain City, against Ilasera, and in Ascension, against Ilasera.

Shield of Reflection is cheesy? Only in what? 0.0000~1% of the game? The only time I recall loving it was during the Mercernary Ambush in Amkerthan( ToB), and the final fight of ToB.

Other than that, I never felt compelled to use it.

Well it is in just those situations that it makes things too easy, just like The Other Shield is only cheesy when you face Beholders. Renders should-be-tough encounters like Improved Sahuagin and Illasera pretty much harmless don't you think? [img]smile.gif[/img]

The shield of reflection can be used in a cheesy manner, although at most points in the game, it only makes easy fights easier (like the pirates, orc archer ambush, or the sewer tollkeepers)

It's really bad when you intentionally raise your AC so that enemy archers can hit you with the shield on.

I consider items and spells to be cheesy when the method of obtaining them is too easy compared to the item's abilities.

The Shield of Balduran tops the list. On a lark, I sent a party member out to clear out some Beholders wearing this shield and almost nothing else. The only problem he had? He got Mazed by one. Kinda weird to see all those fatal rays bouncing around a nearly naked Anomen.

::chuckles softly as IronWorkers around the globe shudder at the mental image::

Another item of cheese is the Celestial Fury. This is the kind of thing you'd expect to find in a major battle with scary baddies, not some wannabe-Ronin punk hanging out with the Slave Lords. He's probably the guy who runs out to the McDonatus for Happy Meals on Sion's orders. ("What?! No KETCHUP?!" Sion: casts PFE/Gate)

I recently found the upgraded Hallowed Redeemer and wanted to see if it was an equal to Carsomyr. They make good weapons...as long as you're Keldorn...who's an Inquisitor...

(Keldorn + Anomen + Mazzy + Cernd + Yoshimo/Immy/ToB NPC + PC thief/mage = Anyone watch the Spam skit from Monty Python's Flying Circus? I can hear the Vikings chanting in the background now...spam spam spam spam, spam spam spam spam, lovely spam, wonderful spam...)

I'm sure a lot of the Improved Items mod was put together for ToB use, but I think that many of the recipes are too cheap. (Kitthix ingredients, anyone?)

I'm not even going into fleets of Mordenkaiden's Swords, Simulacra, or presetting 20+ traps. I'm already doing one big project on my favorite pasttime. ;)

But you never see people complain about how cheesy the Ring of Gaxx is, or the Staff of the Magi. The greatness makes up for the difficulty. I just don't see that in a lot of other things.

The Improved Sahuagin are still a walk in the park, IMHO, especially if you want to compare them to the Improved Beholders. There are many alternatives to deal with massive missile bombardment, but options are pretty limited versus the Beholders.

I never had any problems with Improved Illasera, and with a party... she is a total pushover. The reason why the shield came into play in Amkerathan(sp?) is because there were literally dozens of proficient archers shooting relentlessly at you. It was equip the shield or become the Bhaalspawn of Pincushions.

So the difference is... short of extraordinary circumstances, the Shield of Reflection is rarely needed, and situations do not usually become dire if you lack it. The Shield of Balduran on the other hand, is not so.

Shield of reflection is great in the final TOB battle - there is another one who uses ranged attack and also some summons with a very nasty ranged attack.

But I also used it (for the first time) at the very beginning of the game. Remember Beastmaster with a Tuigan - heh, he comitted suicide. ;)

And how about using it against improved Golems ?
Can you Improve improve them too - Mr. Weimer ?

About improved Sauhagin - in the lastest version of Tactics Mod they DO NOT fire at you - they fight with their spears and they have great THAC0.
(they hit me on a roll of 9, my AC was around -11 - calculate yourself ...)

Very cool - Mr. Weimer !
Of course my R/C had ironskins but it would be a different story fot someone else.

Ring of Gaxx - Good one Pirengle!! That's a powerful ring. Mace of D..?? Sure is a powerful weapon. Managed to kill all the liches (SoA + ToB) pretty fast in my last game. 1 lich managed to cast 1 spell. That was all.

I guess this is a never ending discussion.

I use the items I find in the game. I'm not that good at RPGs so a few "nice" items aren't gonna spoil my game.

Actually, SoR = Physical Mirror, when you think about it. It's just that Physical Mirror can be dispelled...

Well I had never ever used the Shield prior to this NRS project, and my current strategy against them still doesn't depend on it, so there are obviously a few viable ways to deal with them. Besides using SI and Spell Shield to gain immunity to most of their attacks, you can also use Mislead to nearly render them harmless, since as frighteningly fast as their reactions are, they're still not quick enough to pierce Mislead. Hit'n'Run'n'Hide with a ranged weapon also works well. With a party, you can simply use Imp Haste on 3-4 Fighters, cast Mass Invisibility, walk in with your entire party, ambush them and attempt to kill them before any major damage can be caused, worked for me a few dozen times when I played with a party.

Shield of Balduran is of course more powerful than the Reflection Shield since the enemies it counters are so much more dangerous, but it doesn't offer nearly the same protection against Beholders as the Reflection Shield does against ranged attackers. Improved Beholders and Gauths will simply stop shooting at you if they notice their rays bouncing back at them, and instead engage in melee. So you cant use the Shield to kill them or disable them, and they are actually quite scary in melee unless your lone fighter can manage at least -15 AC and negative Saves, without protection spells, which he probably wont have in the early to middle stages of the game, thus they remain a threat even with the Shield equipped. Spellcasting isn't really an option either since their Anti-Magic Rays remain as potent as ever even with the shield equipped.

The Reflection shield however, renders you completely invulnerable to ranged attackers. It's not just that Imp Sahuagin or Illasera becomes easy with it equipped. No, it's that you could let your 3-year old sister take control of your character, remaining calm knowing that there's no possible way she can be killed with that shield equipped in the underwater city. Of course there's a remote possibility, but you catch my drift? Using the Reflection shield against ranged attackers makes you immortal, invulnerable, god-like, divine, whatever you prefer. The Shield of Balduran doesn't quite put you in the same position against Beholders.

[ 04-23-2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

Physical Mirror has a pathetic duration as well ;)

Only because nobody has bothered to script an improved script for the enemy archers. It is unfair to compare them to the improved beholders so nonchalantly when the beholders received a custom script to specifically handle the problem of the Shield of Balduran.

Prior to the Improved Beholders Mod, the Shield of Balduran did make you for all purposes, invulnerable to Beholders.

The alternative tactics you suggested are very specific and very limited compared to the various alternatives that you can deploy against general ranged attackers such as Stoneskins, Ironskins, PfNormal Missiles, Physical Mirror, Mirror Image, Low AC, Missle Damage Resistance, Mantle spells, Invisibility, Stealth, etc... ...

Without these shields, mass archers still do not instill fear. Mass Beholders on the other hand... will. It generally speaks for itself.

Ok a few more, PfM scrolls, High Magic Resistance, Stacked AoE damage spells, MD Resistance + Low Saves, Globe of Invulnerability against Gauths.

All the following are good counters and work against all Beholders (except the last one), how much more general can you get ;)

Oh I don't know, Imp Sahuagin are very lethal if you get close to them without PfMW. I agree that Beholders are generally more dangerous though.

You cannot honestly tell me that PfMagic scrolls are a viable tactic unless you exploit the cheese of cloning which approximately 0.00001% of the gamers know about.

High Magic Resistance is not easily gained either, unless you are high level, in which case almost anything becomes a walkover.

Stacked AoE spells are viable though, although this will mean that you need a Mage( especially for the Spell Shield). What about an all Warrior party then? Take the pain I suppose. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I nitpick a lot I guess, but as can be evidenced, fighting the Improved Beholders require extraordinary alternatives without the shield. Fighting the Improved Sahuagin however, does not.

Cast a Free Action, drink a Potion of Freedom, equip Arbane's Short Sword, wear a Ring of Free Action, etc... and the stunning bolts become a non-issue.

Ring of Gaxx, antidotes, elixir of health, slow poison, etc... and the fact that they have so few Bolt of Biting, and the issue of poison is also a non-issue.

Melee? MELEE?? Well, besides the fact they do not have fearsome melee, it is not relevant to the shield anyway.

It is soooo much easier to deal with the Improved Sahuagin without the shield, then it is to deal with the Improved Beholders with the shield.

EDIT] Grammatical mistakes.

[ 04-23-2003, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Sure they can be used to clear out the two major Beholder lairs in the game. I did it with one lair once quite some time ago, when I couldn't really find a better use for the one I had left. The Beholder Lairs are, after all, a few of the most magic-intense areas in the whole game.
Monks can pretty easily get the MR required to somewhat safely battle Beholders, Viconia can also be used to absorb their attacks, as can Solaufein if one has that mod. Imp Sahuagin aren't really that easy either without spells or the shield. Their THACO is way below zero, they attack fast, do significant damage on Insane, got mucho HP, and are pretty powerful in Melee as well. Anything but a very well-equipped and high-level Warrior party will in fact have trouble facing those groups. I suppose 4 Sahuagin launching 30-35 dmg bolts augmented by Called Shot at 4 APR each, is also a non-issue? ;)
No it is not, by "getting close" I meant, close enough for them to actually see and attack you. I know that killing them with AoE spells outside their sight range is a common and easy tactic. I'll just have to plain disagree here. Though I don't really find either monster that difficult, the difference in difficulty when equipping the respective shield, is bigger with the Sahuagin.

Imp Beholders go from being quite deadly to still posing a threat if you're not careful or have well-equipped fighters. While the Imp Sahuagin go from potentially causing some real trouble unless you're very carefully prepared or well-equipped and high-level, to being no more dangerous than a piece of cotton.

A couple of points... when Perseus, or whatever old Geek it was (proper names are the first things to dribble out of your memory once you're over 40) killed the Medusa because he used a shiny shield to bounce her gaze back at her, was this cheese? Well, one man's cheese is another man's rat bait.

Ever since the original design of D&D (or even Chainmail) back in the days before personal computers, there has been an ongoing "weapons escalation" that has produced edition after edition of rules additions and new versions. Great for lining the pockets of whoever owned TSR at the time, but it meant a never ending struggle to "balance" the game between player power and monster power.

We are seeing the same thing in the IE. Players used, abused, and loopholed the program to death, spending the gods know how many cumulative being-hours trying to figure out the best way to maximize the kill power of their parties while also enhancing their survivability, and then began to complain that the game was "too easy" or "too cheesy." So Mr Weimer and associates kindly spend a great deal of their spare time and brainpower (free for nothing) to enhance the bad guys and limit the "cheese," and another gaggle of rules-exploiters and loophole-finders began to dissect the results for the best ways to negate the enhancements. And you've all done a very good job, since it appears the consensus of opinion on this thread is that the Advanced tactics and monster mods are still "too easy" and the equipment originally placed into the game is still "too powerful."

You want challenge? I suggest you challenge yourselves, instead of waiting for somebody else to challenge you. Mr (Ms?) Piringle has decided, for role-playing purposes, to play a team with no magic at all (potions excepted). I imagine she (he?) is hardly "bored" at all by the experience. Find something to interest yourselves, whether it be creating new weapons and mods and situations or deliberately restricting your own play and *role play.* That was, after all, what the entire RPG experience is supposed to be about, not rules lawyers figuring out the nth "flaw" in somebody else's hard work and chortling over how clever they are.

-- Mal

Hehe, good points, Malthaussen, and as a matter of fact, Rataxes and I do. Restrict ourselves that is, but we debate on what is cheese, and what is not in order to decide what should be restricted.

There was one time where I restricted myself to not use metal armour or helmets, and everybody had to be proficient in bows and quarterstaves if they could. They made it all the way through the game( SoA-ToB).

Even today, I still restrict myself and am slowing edging to borderline insanity on restrictions. I construct elaborate tactics involving Mod items, but strangely enough, forbid myself to use them.

In response to Rataxes, I guess this is where we decide to agree to disagree, as I simply cannot fathom the Sahuagin as more formidable than the Beholders. http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/eek7.gif Everytime I fight them, I think of them as XP meatbags. Even the much vaunted Improved Sahuagin Priestess was a non-issue( and subsequently a disappointment) for me.

ADD] Oh, and she is a she. ;)

[ 04-23-2003, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Like Dundee said: Playing on Insane, playing without reloads, restricting myself from using certain too powerful items, spells, tactics or bug-exploits - All those things are precisely what you advocate Malthaussen, ways to create challenges ourselves when the game itself cannot adequately provide it.

Well I don't think they're actually more difficult either [img]smile.gif[/img] , far from it. But the relative drop in difficulty when taking the respective shields in account, is larger for the Sahuagin.

As a DM of very long standing (my world has been around since 1976), I have gone through many "versions" of my own as my players found new and exciting ways to "cheese" me to death. [img]smile.gif[/img] It can be a fun experience, except when one has to deal with players who seem to view RPGs as a one-on-one battle against the DM for superiority and bragging rights -- a category into which far too many players, alas, fall. Since my campaign was pretty much created by myself, with certain D&D conventions used when they seemed appropriate, I had less trouble than DMs whose worlds were strictly constructed "by the rules" -- whichever edition or sub-edition happened to be in place at the time. Of course, this also led to my being accused of "Not playing real D&D" by players whose knowledge of the rules, subsets, and addenda rivalled the competance of the best trial lawyers in the business. [img]smile.gif[/img]

When I played in somebody else's "real" D&D campaign, I always was frustrated by the others in the group who spent an hour (or more) constructing their characters -- not for role-playing reasons, to build background and atmosphere, but simply to maximize their alter-egos through their encyclopaedic knowledge of the rules. But, then again, as I've said before -- whatever floats yer boat.

What floats my boat is creating parties and characters drawn from my own long-standing (unpublished) fantasy epic, history, some few other fantasy series, or simply created out of whole cloth, and then taking them through whichever game I happen to be playing at the time and kicking some serious tail. Accordingly, I have no problem using SK or IEEP, or what have you; in fact, this style pretty much requires it. After all, Diomedes, King of Argos, was a warrior who was able to defeat in single combat two -- count 'em -- two gods, one of whom was the God of War himself. Agreed, he had a little help from his friend Athene. [img]smile.gif[/img] So if I want to give D. a strength of 21 and a similar constitution, in an attempt to profile his tremendous abilities, who shall gainsay me?

I have no problem, btw, with people discussing where and how they find the game personally challenging or otherwise, and suggesting and working on ways to tailor it to their personal preferences -- indeed, such discussion can enhance just about everybody's playing experience. But I do so hate the people who *complain.* [img]smile.gif[/img]

It's kind of funny, btw. The creators of BG2 thought they had made a pretty tough and challenging game; after all, they tell you repeatedly what to do if an encounter is "too difficult for you." Apparently, it hadn't occured to them that many players would find the game "too easy." [img]smile.gif[/img]

-- Mal

Wouldn't you give him rather Draw up holy might, at all, Pallas Athene blessed him only temporairy...but I get your point

Just insert "In My Humble Opinion" before all of this stuff....

The Shield of Balduran is one of the cheesiest items ever concieved, simply due to the sheer level of power it nullifies and even reflects. I feel that a good measurement of cheesiness is how you would feel if that same item or spell was used against you. If I had a party of 4 Beholders and 2 Gauths, I could simply plow through the game in one sitting, no reloads or pausing, while half asleep. My only difficulties would be creatures with high Magic Resistance (assuming one of the Gauths could Disarm Traps and one of the Beholders had the capacity to Heal everyone). But take one Shield of Balduran and slap it on somebody like Neeber, and the world turns upside down. Add in the ease (and speed) with which the Shield can be obtained, plus the fact that an artifact of this power wouldn't be for sale anyway, and the fromage begins to seep out of my monitor. (And just what the heck would a guy like *Balduran* want with this thing anyway?)

As for Improved Beholders kicking ass in a melee, well, Weimer has done a lot of things that don't really seem to be justified. And even so, all that's done is turn the Beholder Lairs into a melee brawl: 2 Tanks--1 with Shield, 1 with Cloak--wade in and start hitting things, just like every other dungeon crawl in the game. I'm sure that Weimer had the best of intentions, but that is not a Beholder fight....that's more like a Stone Golem fight. And, since the Improved Beholders' unexplained melee ability really screws up the strategy of using your Mage as the Tank, the Cloak-Shield-brawl ticket seems to be the only way to go.

Now, the Shield of Reflection. Again, ease and speed of procuring such an item, and the way it can really screw you over if you happen to be an Archer. But, happily, there are alternatives: If you shoot somebody and it bounces back, you can
a) Shoot at somebody else
b) Have your friends go beat him up
c) Use some Summoning items and run away
d) See if you can beat it in a melee.
The fact that none of the enemies worth wearing the Shield for are smart enough to switch to any of these tactics points to the general weakness of the game's AI, not the cheesiness of the Shield itself. It's still cheesy, though--at the very least, it deserves a good solid fight before you can get it.

<font color=gray>Off Topic</font> Dundee, there actually is a quite viable way of handling the Amkethran Archers without the Shield: Missile Resistance. 90% without the Adventurewear ain't bad, even if it is temporary. Also quite handy for those damn eyeballs.

What if you had a party of six Archers? Your team would be in as much trouble vs Neeber using the Reflection Shield, as your team of Beholders would be if he carried the Shield of Balduran ;) Of course you could go in and kill him with melee weapons, but that's exactly what Imp Beholders can do as well. IMHO, their upgraded melee capabilities was an excellent idea of weimer's, since it makes it impossible for a lvl 9 Fighter to steam-roll through such powerful enemies as Beholders, just because he bought a piece of enchanted metal for 17000 GP.

You'd prefer no fight at all (which is what the Shield vs normal Beholders is), rather than a "Stone Golem fight"? [img]smile.gif[/img] I personally think it's great that you actually have to have some real power to beat these guys now, and not just a single item. It makes even the lesser Lair in Unseeing Eye quite a challenge for a low level party, and one that you actually have to have decent tactics and equipment to handle, not just steam-roll through virtually naked.

[quote]Now, the Shield of Reflection. Again, ease and speed of procuring such an item, and the way it can really screw you over if you happen to be an Archer. But, happily, there are alternatives: If you shoot somebody and it bounces back, you can
a) Shoot at somebody else
b) Have your friends go beat him up
c) Use some Summoning items and run away
d) See if you can beat it in a melee.
[quote]
Your party of Beholders could do pretty much all those things, and the Imp Beholders do in fact do all these things, except summoning monsters, aint it great huh? [img]smile.gif[/img] A party consisting entirely of rangers don't have that option either though, neither can they call their friends to save the day.

Well that IS what makes it cheesy, it takes advantage of and exploits the poor AI. The other shield did the same until weimer upgraded the Beholders. It is still cheesy, but because Beholders now have a way to get around it and actually counter the Shield of Balduran, it's relative cheesiness is less IMHO.

If the AI of ranged attackers was improved - to stop firing arrows if they noticed their missiles being bounced back at them, and instead go in and fight you with melee weapons, kind of like they do if you get close to them, then I would consider the Reflection Shield a far less cheesy item, but it's just not the case, yet.

[ 04-24-2003, 03:20 AM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

Actually, the Reflection Shield is the one reason why I never, ever take any points in Sword and Shield. And, if Archers went into melee, they would be really degraded due to the fact that Archers are pretty bad at melee.

No, I would prefer that the Shield of Balduran never even existed. The only possible reason to use such an Anti-Beholder item is if you wanted to make a party of nothing but Warriors, who would get creamed in a Beholder fight. With such a group, there are two alternatives:
1) Come to grips with the fact that Warriors suck against Beholderkin and give up on the idea of EVER killing them.
2) Use the Shield or the Cloak, and get many thousands of EXP for walking around and maybe hitting something every once in a while.
Even if you choose Option 2, the Shield is still unneccessary, the Cloak will more than suffice. There's nothing wrong with putting off the Unseeing Eye until Chapter 6.

Archers are actually much better melee fighters than people give them credit for: Sure, they can only put 1 star into melee weapons, but as compared to a straight Ranger, all that means is a single point of THAC0, 2 hp of damage per hit, and an extra 1/2 attack per round. You don't see people complaining about Minsc's poor melee abilities, do you? True, an Archer's armor possibilities are limited, but there are some really excellent Leathers out there, especially in ToB, and Archers can still wear Shields.