First of all, if you have not played SOA or do not have the bonus merchants, this post has some details about Balduran's items. If you don't want to know, stop reading now.
MINOR, MINOR SPOILERS
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You were warned. Ok, so last time I posted having trouble dual-classing my try at creating Balduran. I got that figured out, but now would like some help in figuring out the characterization of Balduran. I basically want to make him that he may reunite all his equipment. This will, of course, make him powerful, but certainly not as powerful as he could be.

I don't have the BG1 or BG2 manuals with me (They are, quite frankly, useless; the tables in the back are the only useful part) but I don't recall the BG1 manual saying too much about him other than he had disappeared after founding the city. Someone here posted that he was a Dwarf. I guess I had always envisioned him as a charismatic merchant-warrior; a genial and brilliant leader of men with a pechant for new frontiers and robust trade. A great man, certainly. But a Dwarf?!? Even his weapons don't seem like Dwarf weapons: a long sword?

In addition there is the matter of his class. I would be inclined to just make him a fighter, but especially with the bonus his sword conveys (10% bonus to lore), he seems like he should have high lore, as he is always exploring and uncovering new things. He must have some skill in lore and indentifying items. I can't dual class him to a bard, but how about a Thief? I don't see him as hiding in the shadows, lockpicking or detecting traps, but perhaps picking pockets or setting traps (Someone has to seduce and pickpocket the princess of the sacred Moonstone before fleeing to his ship, and who else but the expeditionary leader could get close enough to)? Perhaps even a Mage; he might know some low level magic to help himself along. This is why I was originally thinking dual to bard; that would cover most of this.

And lastly, his skills. I was thinking Sword and Shield, Long sword, and longbow as a distant backup weapon. (Great warriors do not use short bows. They use massive, powerful bows).

Thus my $ 0.02. If anyone has any suggestions for:

1. Class
2. Skills
3. Stats
4. Anything else

Please post 'em here. Thanks.

Hmm I dont know where but somewhere in Baldur's Gate one I remember reading in some random book about him being a pirate/merchant, and that he founded baldurs gate because of its good port. Dont take this for facts though. Also i thought he was a human too..

The most I know about Balduran is that he was a dwarf that was a single classed fighter, though as for his stats and such I'm not too sure on. Some vets in this forum will be able to inform you though.

Also, Welcome to the Ironworks [img]graemlins/1djsmile.gif[/img]

Ok. First off, being a Dwarf, there is no way he could be a Mage or a Bard. Dwarves don't throw spells all that often. Also, it dual classing is not available to dwarves in SoA.

Balduran was a Dwarven Fighter who worked as a part time merchant and a part time pirate. He played both sides of the law to make himself incredibly wealthy. There was not much remarkable about him, other then he had a remarkable mind for business.

Not all Dwarves use hammers and axes, infact, many Hill Dwarves use spears and swords, being much more practical weapons on the surface. Ever stop to think that Balduran was not a Mountain Dwarf? After all, how many Dwarves sail the seas... He was a very different sort of Dwarf indeed.

This is from my former post (don't worry, I didn't write it by hand):
I couldn't find anything on the internet, so I looked into BG1's dialog.tlk. I put string reference by these quotes to be able to find them quick. Take a cup of coffee and enjoy!

<font color="lightblue">First story:
ref 18824
Ah yes, the city as we know it today falls in the shape of a plump and crescent moon. Its many wharves and docks jut out along its western point where the River Chionthar flows into the starry Sea of Swords. A bridge from this western shore links the mainland with a rocky islet on which perches the old, massive Seatower of Balduran. (...)

ref 18827
Balduran was a well-known and good-natured pirate who sailed the Sea of Swords in times gone by. He built the Seatower that bears his name to guide him to his home port and provide warning of invasion to his kin and clan that made their home along the northern riverbank. In time, a vibrant group of traders and fellow sea captains gathered there and built the city's inner wall to protect their wares and belongings from the everpresent danger or rival pirates or orcish raids... (...)

ref 18830
Balduran was away from port during the time in which the decision to build the wall was made and, when he returned, he learned that many of his kin and clan now lay outside the new wall and vulnerable to any attack made upon the settlement! As the orcs advanced upon the city in the early summer, it erupted into a state of civil chaos. It was at this point that Balduran's sails were spotted upon the horizon, returning home to port... (...)

ref 18833
In a rage, Balduran slew the entire Council of captains and merchants for such arrogance and selfishness. He spared only the four who had spoken out against the Council's decision. Together, they ordered the immediate construction of the city's outer wall, and bridge gate from which Baldur's Gate gets its name. Facing a united city and a stout defense, the orcs were defeated and, for their valor, Balduran appointed the four captains as Dukes of the city... Well, that's Baldur's Gate in a nutshell.

Second story:
ref 18836
Well, there's really not that much more to tell... Balduran eventually died -apparently lost at sea- and the four Dukes passed on their titles in a hereditary fashion for many years. Now, of course, Dukes are elected to office, although they keep the title until their death. They have grown softer and more tolerant over the years, however, and I think many people would like to see someone with a more extravagant, forceful approach ascend to the position. But that is the future, not the past, and who knows what it shall hold.

ref 21426
(...) As ye may know, Baldur's Gate was named for the legendary seafaring explorer Balduran, who long ago sailed past Evermeet in search of the rich, fabled isles of Anchorome. Balduran returned with tales of strange, vast lands across the seas. He also brought back much wealth and scattered it about his sparsely settled home harbor. So Baldur's Gate was born.

ref 21428
He then set sail again for the wonderous lands he had found. Balduran never returned. Some say he sails still, finding new lands in the endless reaches of the far sea, or even that he sailed off the world and fares now among the stars. Others whisper that he met with misfortune and perished in the deeps, while still others believe that he lived to a ripe old age in his new-found home.</font>

Thanks Vedren. I don't know how much work that was, but it is appreciated.

Unfortunately, I still do not have his race definatively established. Two people have said he's a Dwarf, but where is this dictated? Does anyone know?

Second, hills or no, Dwarves should not be using swords of spears. The reason being that such weapons are ineffective if you are 4 feet tall. Swords require dexterity, and in the interests of parrying, blocking, and use in conjunction with other types of attacks the user must be a bit taller than their weapon. Likewise, you cannot throw a spear or use it as a staff if it is twice as tall as you. And unless you are fighting in formation with a group you must be able to do both of those things. A spear is not the weapon of a lone adventurer unless he knows how to wield it like a staff. Now Pikes, yes, I could see that, if the Dwarf was in a big group. Hmm... A phalanx of Dwarves... watch your kneecaps. But spears and swords? No. Realistically, you must be acceptably tall to wield a long sword, and you need a phalanx to wield a spear in any way accessable to a Dwarf.

And lastly, although I acknowledge that Tolkien is seperate from D&D lore, in The Lord of the Rings it's my recollection that Dwarves do not like water, as a race. Balduran could be the exception that proves the rule, but it still seems a little off.

Pirate, though, hmm... Maybe a ::shudder:: Swashbuckler/Fighter.

Makes sense, but in this case size doesn't really matter much I guess. Look at halflings, they can use two-handed swords.

A weapon that a human would wield as a one-handed long sword, a halfling would wield as a two-handed sword. And humans 2h-sword would for halfling be ... I don't know, a flamberge?

References above to Balduran's 'kin and clan' seem to point to his Dwarf nature.

well we know he is a pirate and is most likely a dwarf due to the kin and clan comments o well. Ill be the first to admit i was wrong hehe

according to PnP rules creatures can use weapons up one size category larger than themselves, 2-handed swords are size large, so gnomes, 1/2lings and some dwarves are banned from using them, this was probably too troublesome for the makers of the game, as well as ostracizing to those who would want to play gnomes or 1/2lings

Apart from Tolkien, Dragonlance dwarf (the friend of Giltanas(spelling?) uhh... forgot his name!) was veery afraid of crossing a lake by a boat. And he mentioned that the fear of water is common among their clan. So, I doubt that someday a dwarf can become a pirate...

Of course, thats Forgotten Realms, not Dargonlance, but still..

a dislike of water is common among dwarves (one reason they don't prize Pearls as much as they do other gems), but there is also nothing forcing them to avoid it.

Balduran was an unusual fellow, so why should we project the "usual" Dwarven hydrophobia on him?

I can see Dwarves & Halflings using Spears and Staves, for the simple reason that it's perfectly common to hold the weapon near the middle and attack with both ends. A 4-foot Dwarf should have no problems with a 6-foot Spear in this manner. (And if you want to use the "only-the-blunt-end" style, just grab a saw.)

2-Handed Swords, however, cannot be held in the middle (at least, not more than once), and so I won't allow my short folk to use them. I will permit the use of Bastard Swords and Katanas only when the user's high Strength (at least 16) would seem to justify it, and even then, they can't be Dual-wielded with anything larger than a Short Sword or Ninja-To.

The concept of short-folk using Longbows is ridiculous, but short-folk using Heavy Crossbows is not.

I want to make something known.

I am a very short person, 5 foot 5 with shoes on. And I have used long bows larger then six foot long in the stave. ANY well trained short person can use a long bow. All you have to do is hold it to a slight tilt sideways. Hutch Gesperin, if anybody knows who he is, is one of the world's greatist trick shots and he is a real life dwarf, a Pitituary Dwarf. He stands about 4 foot tall and he uses long bows just fine. He holds his sideways however.

As for the spear issue, there are many types of spears. Short spears, lances, footman's lances, long spears, pikes, etc, it all depends on the size of the spear. Dwarves infact, do use pikes. Dwarven Pikemen are feared foes, highly trained, short, strong, and stocky.

As for Dwarves being hydrophobic, well, there ARE Sea Dwarves. They make magnificent floating fortresses and usually work with Sea Gnomes in spectacular sea battles with impressive machinery.

I want to make something known.

I am of average height, about 5''8 without shoes. I've been throwing darts, shooting with bows, sparring unarmed, trained to a marginal extent with knives, sais, and the long staff for about 8 years now. I am by no means an authority, but I have seen some people who are.

I've seen many persons very good with a staff -some of them relatively short- but a short human != a dwarf. You can be _somewhat_ short and use a staff/sword/spear, but you cannot have stubby limbs and be fat and still use them. And Dwarves are, by all accounts, somewhat rotund (This is strictly fantasy dwarves- I'm not getting into the ugly issue of political correctness and weapon effectiveness). Even gripping the staff in the middle, their arms are just too short and stocky to pull off the kind of arm-hip whipchain motion you need to swing a staff effectively. I said I've seen short persons who use a staff. True. But they were all thin. And they weren't so short they couldn't swing it around. Even holding a staff as high up as possible, a Dwarf could not spin it perpendicular to the ground. And you must do that to fight. Otherwise you'll never get it around in time to hit or block anything.

Likewise, I've seen a number of kendo practioners. And the short, fat ones always lose. Maybe that is because the are out of shape, or perhaps that overhanging, Dwarfish belly makes such a tempting target for a shinai.

In any event, I just think Dwarfs are too short and too stubby to wield a sword or staff with the dexterity needed. I'm sure they'd do okay against an opponent who didn't move and didn't hit back and couldn't take any damage, but, well, so could anybody. Now an axe or warhammer, both, if you've seen them in say, museums, are very short weapons; no more than a couple of feet in length, esp. the hammers. But a good overhand swing can do a lot of damage (they're very top heavy). Plus, with such short length you don't need long arms to turn them to parry, stubby ones will suffice as long as you're strong. In short, Dwarves' classic weapons are classic for a reason.

As for spears.... Spears are long weapons. Period. Shortest spear I've ever seen was 6ft. And it was ceremonial. Longest was 15 (Phillip the great of Macedonia used these). Spears have to be long to poke at things (like horsies). And if they were really short, not only would you be unable to poke things but also they wouldn't fly well unless you have a launcher (at which point they become bolts or arrows). Or, if you really want to push it, darts. Darts are small and very heavy for their size; they can be thrown. Is that what you meant by "short spear", BF? A dart?

Point taken, however, about him not being an average dwarf. Very true. This may account for a lot of these things. Also, I see no reason a Dwarf can't use a bow. That should be ok.

I guess, in lieu of all the evidence, I'll have to go with Balduran the fighter-dwarf. ::sigh:: But he still needs some high lore...

Look at the classic Roman Pilum, about 3 to 4 feet long, used for both throwing and melee, and works fine with a shield. That's a short spear. Commonly used one handed, and, fierce in combat with a skilled user. Or need I remind you of the Moors, who also used wickedly effective short spears, usually about 3 to 5 feet in length, also capable of ranged or melee. They hooked small bladders to the tips filled with poisonous dust that would poof into a cloud on impact. Woe betide you if you fell into a Moorish harpooner's target. They also used deadly darts and a wide variety of other weapons, but, that's beside the point.

Dwarves must be mighty stupid to not be able to make spears scaled down to their own size... Give them some credit people, Dwarves are the best weapon-smiths that have ever existed.

Short people using long staves are stupid short people. I have trained in martial arts my self and staves were sized to the user, even making them kid friendly. A simplified measurement for a combat stave is from ankle to armpit.

Butterfingers, no disrespect, but 3 inches shorter than the male average isn't "very short." (The girl I went out with in high school is 4'11" and has never weighed more than 90 pounds.) But if you want to talk about....

....then I should point out that the difficulty in short people using Long Bows is not the angle at which the bow is held, but the length of the arms. A Human can draw a bow and get a pull of about 3 feet, if he hauls that sucker all the way back to the shoulder. A hypothetical Dwarf, using the same Bow and also drawing to the shoulder, would only get about 2 feet. Shorter pull = less powerful draw = shorter range and less damaging when it gets there. And that's if the Dwarf is able to hold the Bow perpendicular to the ground.

Aeschylus, while spears and assorted polearms do indeed come in a wide variety of sizes, short spears are by no means strictly ceremonial. The Vikings used 2 types for thrusting and throwing, and both sorts were about the height of the user. I have no problem whatsoever with the image of a Dwarven Viking, fighting with Spear & Shield. (I don't know if the Vikings used spear-throwers, though. And is the term "atlatl" native to any specific part of the world?"

But you do seem to have a point on your "short & stocky" issue. Long limbs do indeed grant a higher top speed and can impart a great deal of leverage to a comparatively light weapon....but then again, shorter limbs give better acceleration and can put more leverage onto heavy weapons. Still, for this reason, long limbs would definitely be better, since most Staves are rather on the lightweight side (unless they're made of things like solid rattan, etc.)

I have always seen Balduran as a human. Can't show any "proofs", but from the stories comes the 'feeling'. Other then that,his class maybe wasn't indeed a 'pure' warrior (or fighter, whatever). He may have been very well some pirate class, swashbuckler or such. Good in melee combat, knows roguish stuff, has a knack in lore and so on... All points more towards the fighter type pirate. And if he was a "high level" pirate, he could also have the higher level rogueish skills like Use Any Item and all the scroll scribing and so on related skills, giving him access to lower level magery as well. Charismatic leader as well, as careful and sneaky rogues tend to be more charismatic then some burly fighters anyway. Charisma comes as a needed thing in this business line [img]smile.gif[/img]

Balduran is a Dwarf.... It can not be made any plainer... Look at his helm for crying out loud. Also, there is the fact that it mentions that Balduran is a Dwarf...

How is this such a hard concept to figure out? He's not human, not a Swashbuckler, He was never a dual class, he was a Dwarven fighter. Period.


:D Deposits 25 cents for a free round of clues :D

Ah-ha! What about a Fighter->Druid then? It can most certainly use the Helm, the Cloak, the Armour, the Sword, and the Shield! Yes I know it sounds absurd, but what say thee?

;)

ADD] Although on hindsight... he could have been a Fighter->Thief too.

[ 04-25-2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Druids can't use Long Swords, Dundee. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I've never heard anything saying that Balduran was charismatic, and certainly not any mention of spellcasting abilities. I would go with either Fighter or Fighter/Thief, as I doubt he was godly enough in power to achieve UAI.

I've seen hints that he was a Dwarf, but I can't bring to mind any specific evidence. Perhaps somebody would be willing to root through all the Balduran material contained in ToSC, and see if that sheds any new light on things?

Balduran could just as easily be a Barbarian. The whole "kin & clan" thing works for them as well.

If we're just going on looks, his Helm looks a lot like Wulfgar's helm on the cover of the various Icewind books.

If we're going on description, "The fabled helm of Balduran, legendary founder of Baldur's Gate, has long been rumored to wield powerful protective magic. The exact nature of this magic, however, has not yet been determined." ummm... lends itself to practically any theory.

- Imrahil

Even when dualled from a Fighter? Just doublechecking. If true, I will have to add this in the dualclass FAQ.

He could not have been a Barbarian for one simple reason,

Plate of Balduran.

He could not have been a Barbarian for one simple reason,

Plate of Balduran. </font>[/QUOTE]Methinks Imrahil was referring to "Barbarian" as a race (or human sub-race if you like), not the class.

'Ranq

Ok, look like it's time for a Dungeon Master to step in. ;)

Yes, Dwarves as a race don't usually like water, but it does not mean all dwarves are afraid of it, I would hate to see how you guys would play a D&D campaign if you all follow such stereotypes. What about Drizzt? Aren't drows supposed to be evil?

And what about that dwarf in the cleric quintet who became a Druid?

As for weapons, a small race should only be able to use a medium size weapon with two hands, and should not be able to use a weapon any bigger. If Balduran was a dwarf, he was probably carrying his shield strapped to his back, and only used it when facing beholders and using another weapon than his longsword. Who would want to use all the time a shield that lower your strength anyway?

But the game engine is limited. In reality, all armor and items should have a size to them. A dwarf can't use a human plate mail, and human can't use a dwarven platemail. And small creature should have the appropriate weapon restriction, but it was not implemented.

Don't forget that Balduran was created for the D&D Forgotten Realm setting, not the Baldur's Gate video game. in the pen and paper game, he would be using the weapon as it should.

Maybe in my Forgotten Realm boxed set they would tell if he is really a dwarf or not, but it's packed somewhere with other boxes, and I don't really want to go dig it up. I might look if no one else can find the info.

I must admit, i too always saw Balduran to be a tall human in a shining full plate. but now it actually makes sence that he would be a dwarf. i never really had any doubt as to him being anything other than a fighter, though.

Flint Fireforge? Yes, he is a very typical dwarf, isnt he?(one of my favourite characters)

But aren't a dwarf a size medium and not a small??
That's the setup in NWN anyway, but then again, I should know betten then to trust Bioware on anything remotely D&D'ish.