It came to my attention that maybe we should include the finer points of dualclassing in the FAQ. Therefore, I am requesting for someone to type out a comprehensive "this and that" on dualclassing. Credit will of course be given, so take this as an opportunity to get your name in the FAQ, and not because DSlaytern is a lazy bas~. http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/AZZANGEL.gif

Jesting aside, the following should be covered. Feel free to add to the list.

1) Race Requirement
2) Level Requirements
3) Class restrictions
4) Valid Combinations
5) Primary Attribute(s) Requirements( STR, CON, etc...)
6) Explanation of Second Class Re-Activation( be concise and clear)
7) Equipment Restrictions
8) Explanation on how certain combinations can add or remove restrictions

The one that I feel is the most complete will be inserted into the FAQ. Credit can and will be given to several members if the work is distributed. Bonus points to those who bother to use HTML/UBB Code to emphasise, sort out, list and make their FAQ clearer.

Perfect spelling and grammar is not strictly required, as I can spellcheck the FAQ for you, but it will of course make your FAQ look much better. I will make a decision by the end of this week, so everybody has a fair chance.

Post your FAQs here in this thread. Feel free to merge( team up) with other members. Heck, even better would be to have everybody to team up as one and work on one FAQ, but I leave it up to you all. [img]smile.gif[/img]

http://www.geocities.com/sixospades/bg/chap5.htm

http://www.geocities.com/sixospades/bg/raceclas.htm

Some of the details you desired "Explanation on how certain combinations can add or remove restrictions," isn't there, but things like UAI are just the sort of thing that gamers should have to figure out for themselves.

I also wrote the page for 800 x 600 resolution, so it may look stupid to those of you on 1024 x whatever, but that's the resolution that most of my viewers use, so I'm sticking with it.

[ 04-08-2003, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

Actually I meant how dualing to a Cleric class for example, restricts you to using blunt weapons only. Not UAI. In fact, there should be no mention of ToB HLAs in the FAQ at all.

That's already covered. A quote from Chapter 5:

"When assigning weapon proficiencies for your first class, plan ahead and be aware of where you're going to put them in your second class, as well. Let's say you really like 2-Handed Swords, so your Fighter puts lots of points into Large Sword. Then you Dual to Cleric, and eventually get your Fighter half back—and all your points in Large Sword are gone. Well, duh, Clerics can't use bladed or piercing weapons, ever, so those points got erased. (Clerics and Druids are the only classes where you have to worry about this; A Fighter->Mage can use Halberds and Composite Long Bows if you want.)"

I was going to mention the guide, but I didn't want to be more of a <s>suckup</s> member of the fan club than I already am.

Maybe also a little something BG2 specific, about best classes to dual and when to dual and where to spend points. I would do this, but as Ratbert said, "I'm more of an idea rat." And I only dual-classed once, and did the fighter/cleric mistake. Thus the dual-classing guide is for people like me. ;)

Hmmmmm.....the motivation behind Volo was to create a really comprehensive guide that made up for the Manual's discrepancies, and told you the stuff that really SHOULD be in the game (such as the fact that the thing is riddled with bugs, there are all these cool MODs you can install, and that Imprisonment means instant death). My goal was to make sure everybody knew all the RULES--and gamers could interpret/exploit those rules on their own time, depending on their relative intelligence. Therefore, I did state that Kensai->Mages can get around the "no armor allowed" rule, but I did not state that Kensai->Mages are 100% Pure Whoopass, and the general rule is to Dual them at Level 9 or 13, depending on whether or not you have ToB.

Now, people may wish that sort of info WAS posted here, and not left to the player to figure out. Opinions?

P.S.: "Quest of the Delta Knights?" Well hey, at least it's a better title than Santa Claus Conquers the Martians.

[ 04-10-2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

Now, people may wish that sort of info WAS posted here, and not left to the player to figure out. Opinions?

Which is what I meant. If people aren't posting on who can dual, it's when to dual. Volo is Volo is Volo, but this FAQ needs to A some of those FAQs.

P.S.: "Quest of the Delta Knights?" Well hey, at least it's a better title than Santa Claus Conquers the Martians.

Let's see...the film combines Dark Ages England, English Renaissance, da Vinci of all people, Greeks, Romans, child saviors, and pee throwing. David Warner plays the lead bad guy, the lead good guy, and narrates. Not one of the best MST3Ks out there, but the movie is AWFUL. Filmed in '93. And again I whimper, why, Irenicus, why?!

Well I had nothing to do this evening, so I decided to tackle this project. I've made an FAQ that probably reiterates many of the points SixOfSpades made in his guide (and probably more eloquently), but adds a few things to it.
Feel free to criticize it all you want because I'm not an expert, but I know what I'm doing. It's also a bit messy looking, but here it is:
Multi and Dual Classing
By Arquendil Lorigollo

What’s the Difference between Dual-classing and Multi-classing?:
Well, a multi class splits your character evenly throughout his experience between two classes from beginning to end, exactly 50% in one class and 50% in another (or 33%/33%/33% for three classes). During the character’s whole life, he will be working on two classes at once, thus leveling up more slowly. Also note that only non-humans can multi-class (For specific restrictions on race, scroll down)
A Dual-class is an option only available to humans and humans only, it is the only thing special about them (humans that is). In this situation, the character begins as one class, then starts anew as a completely new class. This allows you to concentrate your efforts on a particular class instead of the 50/50 disadvantage in the multi-class, making things like Lv.7 thief/Lv.13 Cleric for example.

Which Combinations are valid: (Multi-class)
(Most of this is in your instruction manual, but there are some finer points to mention)

1.Fighter/Thief: can use thieving skills (detect traps, pickpockets, etc.) and can specialize in any weapon. However, they can’t use their thieving skills when wearing heavier than studded leather or elven chain. Available to all non-human races

2.Fighter/Cleric: can cast cleric spells, turn undead, and specialize in blunt weapons. THEY CANNOT USE BLADED WEAPONS OR BOWS. Available to ½ Elf, Gnome, Dwarf, ½ Orc.

3.Fighter/Druid: Can shapechange, cast spells, wear heavy armor, and can specialize in any druid weapon (clubs, darts, slings, spears, staves, daggers, and scimitars) MUST BE TRUE NEUTRAL IN ALIGNMENT Available only to ½ Elves.

4.Fighter/Mage: May specialize in any weapon, but can’t cast spells wearing any armor with the exception of helmets, bracers, and Elven Chain mail.Available to Elves, ½ Elves, and Gnomes

5.Fighter/Mage/Cleric: May only use blunt weapons and may not cast mage spells while wearing armor. They can cast mage and priests spells and specialize in any blunt weapon. Only available to Half-Elves

6.Fighter/Mage/Thief: May not use thieving skills while wearing greater than studded leather and may not cast mage spell while wearing any armor at all. May specialize in any weapon. Available to Half-Elves and Elves

7. Mage/Cleric: May cast priest spells and use priest weapons, but cannot cast mage spells while wearing armor other than Elven Chain. Available to ½ Elves and Gnomes

8.Mage/Thief: May use all thieving skills and weapons, but can’t cast spells in any armor but Elven. Available to Elves, ½ Elves, and Gnomes

9. Cleric/Ranger: May use all druid and priest spells, may specialize in any blunt weapon, and may place three *** in 2-weapon Fighting Style. MUST BE OF GOOD ALIGNMENT. Available to ½ Elves.

10.Thief/Cleric: May use all cleric and thief abilities, but must use blunt weapons and cannot use thieving skills with heavier than studded leather armor. Available to Gnomes and ½ Orcs.

* Also remember that the experience cap counts the TOTAL experience from BOTH classes, so you’ll only be able to go so far in each class.

*Note: Gnomes get a special bonus in their multi-classes when they’re part Mage. Instead of being plain mages, they become instant Illusionists. Meaning that they can memorize one extra spell per day, but cannot cast Necromantic spells.

Dual Classes:
When a character dual classes, he stops gaining levels in one class, and starts again in a new one. Remember this: Once your character leaves that first class, it CAN'T GO BACK
There are a few requirements when humans try to dual class; they are as follows:
1. the human must be at least level 2
2. Their first class cannot be any one of these:
-Any Paladin kit
- Monk
- Sorcerer
- Archer, Stalker, or Beast Master
- Wild Mage
- Bard
3. There must not be an alignment conflict (i.e.: Fighter must be True Neutral to dual-class to a Druid)
4. Must have at least a score of 15 in the primary Stat of the first class and a score of 16 or greater in the primary stat of the new class. The primary stats for each class are:
Fighter: STR
Ranger: WIS and CON
Wizard: INT (if first class, the mage kit you chose might have another primary stat, but only INT counts in dual-classing)
Cleric: WIS
Druid: WIS and CHA
Thief: DEX
Barbarian: STR
5.the new dual class must be one of the valid multi-classes

If your human meets these requirements, you’re ready and able to dual class! [img]smile.gif[/img]

How do I Dual Class?

It’s a lot easier than it sounds, especially if you’re creating you character in BG2 since you start at level 7 or 8.
STEP 1:
Click on the character sheet that displays all you stats
STEP 2:
If you meet the requirements for any dual class, the “Dual Class” button will be brightened, click on it!
STEP 3:
A new screen will appear showing the classes your character can go into. Select the class you wish and click “Done”
STEP 4:
Another screen will let you assign any weapon proficiencies you need (remember that Clerics, even dual-classes ones CANNOT use bladed or bows as weapons)
STEP 5:
If you’re dueling to a Mage, you’ll be asked to choose your beginning spells on the next screen
STEP 6:
Now you verify all your choices and click “Done”

That’s all folks! That wasn’t too hard was it? Now your character will be level one in whichever class you moved to.

Regaining 2nd Class Abilities:

Your Character will need to gain experience to one level above the first class to get those abilities back, this is just one example of this:
First class= Level 8 Swashbuckler
You then dual to a mage and your screen will look like this:
Level 1 Mage
Exp: 0
Next level: 2500
(inactive)
Level 8 Swashbuckler
Exp: 70,000

You will need to get to level 9 in your mage class before you can use any of your thieving skills again (including proficiencies, but puting a * in a weapon from the first class, then putting in a * in the same weapon BEFORE regaining the 2nd class will NOT give you specialization in the weapon).
Once you reach level 9, you will gain any Hit Points you would’ve gained during the first class’ disablement and will get back any proficiencies you had in non-mage weapons and will be able to use them freely.

This is just one example, but know that you will not regain any abilities of your first class until your new class is one experience level above the first.
Here are just a few notes on certain Dual-class combos:
- Be careful when dualing to a Cleric because any proficiencies you put into non-blunt or bow weapons will be lost completely
- Know that your first class can be a special kit (with the exceptions noted above) like the Swashbuckler instead of a plain thief

Dual classing can remove certain restrictions on weapons and armor, they are as follows:
1. Fighters who go to mage allow the mage class to gain grand mastery in a weapon and allow them to wear Elven Chain armor
2. Thieves who go to mage also allow the mage to gain some new weapon possibilities and allows them to wear Elven Chain

Also remember what I said about the experience cap, even in dual classing it counts the TOTAL experience from BOTH classes, so watch out when dualing late
Final Thoughts:
This FAQ may help those having trouble with the more-than-one-class thing, and any additions or suggestions or corrections will be appreciated [img]smile.gif[/img]
Thanks, by Arquendil Lorigollo

[ 04-16-2003, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Arquendil Lorigollo ]

All in all, well done. A few nitpicks:

Just for the heck of it, I would put in a little more emphasis that the *user* can choose to Dual-Class at any time after Level 2, thus allowing you to craft your character exactly the way you want him/her.

They are restricted from all weapons that do either Slashing or Piercing damage. For instance, Spears and Darts are forbidden to all Cleric characters as well.

And Shields. An explanation of what is and is not Elven Chain Mail would also not be amiss.

....or Elven Chain. Perhaps instead of stating the "Armor Blocks Wizard Spells and Rogue Skills" rule in every section, it would be better to just explain it all at the very beginning.

This is slightly misleading, as all the other Warriors and part-Warriors can do this too.

Beast Masters actually can Dual, at least in my game, but Barbarians cannot. Wild Mages might also be barred, but that I don't know.

Irrelevant, due to Barbarans not being able to Dual. Also, the stat requirements for Dualing a Cleric to a Ranger (Screwy, I know, but hey, it could happen) are very bizarre: One of the illogical reqisites is 17 DEX. I wrote them all down somewhere, I might be able to find it.

The armor rules are already stated in your descriptions of the Fighter/Mage and Thief/Mage, etc. It might just be simpler to state that Dual-classes who are part Fighter can continue to add weapon proficiencies, all the way to Grandmastery, even if their Fighter half is no longer active.

Anybody else have any helpful points to add to the FAQ?

Hmmm.... There's a fun little bug involving Full Plates +1 and thieving skills - I love it for Fighter/Mages. ;) May not be 100% relevant, but worth noting anyway.

And that little exploit has finally been brought to Kevin Dorner's attention, and will be fixed in the next version of BaldurDash. And it's about flippin' time, too, since that abuse has been around since *BG1*.

....But what possible use would a Fighter/Mage get out of it?

None whatsoever, but since you said "Armor Blocks Wizard Spells and Rogue Skills", I just thought it was appropriate. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Experience points. Something about how you can't dual your level 30 fighter and expect him/her to become a level 30 mage. The experience cap is for total experience, not just experience from one class. I think the same goes for multiclassing...

Well I thank you all for the nitpicks and additions so far, it will give any inquisitive readers of this thread some great help when it comes to having more than one class [img]smile.gif[/img]
Next, to the most recent question/concern/suggestion...
If you look carefully, I mention *twice* that the experiance point cap for BG2 counts the experiance points from BOTH classes.
Maybe I didn't give any specific examples, or stress that point enough, so, I will give an example to anyone with questions on Multi/Dual-classes and the XP cap.

So let's say you have a level 9 Kensai and you dual-class to a Mage,
then you get your mage to level 10 and get your second-class abilities back at that point your XP screen will look like this:

Mage level 10:250,000
Next level:375,000

Kensai Level 9: 250,000

In this instance, this character would have a combined total experiance of 500,000XP and that would be the number considered by the XP cap.

That might not help you too much, so we'll use the same character (Kenai:Lv.9/Mage:levelx)
Why did I put the x there?
Because I'm going to show you how high a level Mage this dual-class can become.

*For understanding's sake, having the XP Level tables in front of you would be very helpful now [img]smile.gif[/img]

The XP Cap for SOA is 2,950,000
Now, subtract the number of XP of the Kensai class from the cap level:
2950000-250000
You'll get:
2700000
This is the XP Cap for the Mage class.
That means (correct me if I'm wrong) that this character can become
Kensai Lv.9/ Mage Lv.17 in SoA!


That probably answers any questions about the Dual-class XP, but what about multi-classes?
They are much more simple.
First, take the XP Cap and divide it by two (for three-classes, divide by 3):
2950000/2
This will be the experiance cap for each individual class.
Use the experiance tables in your manual to determine the max level for each class.

I hope that clears up any confusion on XP Cap and multiple classes.
[img]smile.gif[/img]

What would this particular bug consist of precisely? Find traps/Detect illusion can always be used, regardless of armor, so it couldn't be that you're referring to, could it?

[ 04-20-2003, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

Indeed, Find Traps (and Detect Illusions, obviously, as it uses the same button) isn't affected by armor. The bug i'm referring to, though, will also allow you to Disarm Traps (and Pick Locks, and Pick Pockets) - and more importantly - Stealth while wearing a Full Plate +1. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 04-21-2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Alson ]

Indeed, Find Traps (and Detect Illusions, obviously, as it uses the same button) isn't affected by armor. The bug i'm referring to, though, will also allow you to Disarm Traps (and Pick Locks, and Pick Pockets) - and more importantly - Stealth while wearing a Full Plate +1. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]Tried it out. The thieving skills sure did work, but Stealth wasn't enabled. Is it a particular suit of Full Plate +1 that will enable Stealth? I tested with the one one of the members of the Temple Sewers Party wears.

Yep, same here - Tarnor's armor. Weird...

In all of my games, I have seen that Full Plate+1 will enable all Thieving skills (without penalties, no less!) except Stealth. I have never seen any variation from this.

And that's why I think Alson's smoking crack, and not sharing it with us. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Oh, the SHAME! I was 100% sure about this... but I went ahead and tested it yet again, and whoa! No stealth... :( Perhaps something to do with the Baldurdash Remix? Or just lousy observation skills on my part? Probably. Um.

Now, where's that pot? :D

A draft.

<a name="#dualclass"><font color="#00FFFF">Dualclassing Information, v1.2</font></a>

With thanks to SixOfSpades and Arquendil Lorigollo. Kudos to Alson and Pirengle for chipping in as well.

Dualclassing enables you to add a second class-type to a character and hopefully gain the benefits of both class-types, with minimal penalties from either class-types. The following is a general guideline for dualclassing, with a few exceptions which will be further discussed afterwards.

</font>

1. You must be Human in order to dualclass.</font>
2. You need to be at least level 2 in your first class.</font>
3. You may dual from a kit, but not to a kit.</font>
4. The resulting combination must be a valid multiclass option as well.</font>
5. Your alignment must not conflict with the second class.</font>
6. You need a score of 15+ in your first class' primary statistic(s), and a score of 17+ in the desired class' primary statistic(s).</font>
7. When you dual, you temporarily lose the abilities of the first class. The level of your second class needs to exceed the level of your first class before you can reuse your first class' abilities.
   
   The Throne of Bhaal Expansion High Level Abilities do not apply to this rule however.</font>
8. The XP from both classes is added together to get the character's total XP.</font>
9. Once you dual, there is no going back and your first class will no longer improve in levels</font>

Quirks:

Fighter

When you dual from a Fighter class-type, you are able to retain the Grandmastery ability for your second class. You are also allowed to wear all types of armour that a normal Fighter can wear( with the exception of the Kensai). All weapon-types are available to you as well( unless you dualled to a Cleric, whose weapons restriction holds higher priority). Certain fighter-only items are open to you.

Kits like the Wizard Slayer and Kensai will transfer their equipment restrictions over to the second class.

Berserkers and Kensais cannot use certain ranged weapons. This restriction is transferred over to the second class if you choose to either dual from a Berserker or a Kensai.

Cleric

When part of the dualclass is Cleric, you are automatically forbidden to use non-blunt weapons. You gain the ability to use cleric-only items though, and certain spellcaster ones if the other half of the dualclass is a non-spellcaster.

Mage

When part of the dualclass is Mage, you gain the ability to wear robes, even if you have armour restrictions from the other class( for example Kensai). Mage-only items become available for your usage, as are all spellcaster items.
<table align="center", border="1", width="500"><tr><td align="center", colspan="3">Valid Combinations</td></tr>
<tr align="center"><td width="100">1st Class</td><td width="100">2nd Class</td><td width="300">Requirements</td></tr>
<tr align="center"><td width="100", rowspan="4">Fighter
Berserker
Kensai
Wizard Slayer</td><td width="100">Cleric</td><td width="300">15 STR, 17 WIS</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100">Druid</td><td width="300">15 STR, 17 WIS, 17 CHA, True Neutral Alignment</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100">Mage</td><td width="300">15 STR, 17 INT</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100">Thief</td><td width="300">15 STR, 17 DEX</td></tr>
<tr align="center"><td width="100", rowspan="4">Cleric
Including the kits</td><td width="100">Fighter</td><td width="300">15 WIS, 17 STR</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100">Mage</td><td width="300">15 WIS, 17 INT</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100">Ranger</td><td width="300">15 WIS, 17 STR, 17 DEX, Good Alignment</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100">Thief</td><td width="300">15 WIS, 17 DEX</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100", rowspan="3">Mage
Including the specialist kits except the Wild Mage</td><td width="100">Fighter</td><td width="300">15 INT, 17 STR</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100">Cleric</td><td width="300">15 INT, 17 WIS</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100">Thief</td><td width="300">15 INT, 17 DEX</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100", rowspan="3">Thief
Including the kits</td><td width="100">Fighter</td><td width="300">15 DEX, 17 STR</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100">Cleric</td><td width="300">15 DEX, 17 WIS</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100">Fighter</td><td width="300">15 DEX, 17 STR</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100">Ranger
Beast Master</td><td width="100">Cleric</td><td width="300">15 DEX, 15 STR, 17 WIS</td></tr><tr align="center"><td width="100">Druid
Including the kits</td><td width="100">Fighter</td><td width="300">15 WIS, 15 CHA, 17 STR</td></tr></table>

[ 04-24-2003, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

<font color=white> Nice work Dundee, it was alot of work wasn't it (pointing at the HTML coding needed for that table)?

I like it, its a good right to the point tutorial... Great work ;) </font>

Looks great! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

You're too kind, considering the awful shame. [img]smile.gif[/img] However, I'll try to regain my lost honor:

But not a triple-multi. Self evident, but still.

This is not 100% accurate. For example, if your Thief picked a certain ToB HLA ability before dualing, the second class will also enjoy the benefits of this specific HLA, despite the Thief class being inactive. This is a ToB example... but i'm sure there are some SoA examples, as well. Hmmm... Swashy's bonuses? Kensai's?

Slight nitpick: Can't use Bows, Darts & Crossbows. They can still use other ranged weapons, such as Throwing Axes and Throwing Daggers.

[ 04-22-2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Alson ]

Dundee, the table is great, but I have 2 nitpicks: Posting the CHA requirement for the Druid->Fighter seems irrelevant, since all Druids have at least 15 CHA anyway. Unless fooling around with the Rod of Terror will actually prevent your Druid from Dualing, I would drop that requirement from the list. Also, I was under the impression that Beast Masters could Dual, but Archers and Stalkers could not.

[ADD:] Oh, and one more thing. Given the frequency with which newbies seem to forget these things, certain factors such as "temporarily lose the abilities of the first class" and "exceed the level of the first class" should be highlighted. Also, you should hammer into people's skulls the fact that you can NEVER AGAIN gain levels or skills in your first class. [/ADD]

Slight nitpick: Can't use Bows, Darts & Crossbows. They can still use other ranged weapons, such as Throwing Axes and Throwing Daggers. </font>[/QUOTE]Only because of the game's wierdo definition of "ranged" weapons. That's why whenever I'm discussing the Kensai, Berserker or Cavalier, I always point out the difference between "launched" and "thrown" weapons. (Although Darts defy even this classification.)

[ 04-22-2003, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

Excellent work!
Yours is much more to the point than mine, but then again I was trying to eliminate ANY question on Dual-classes.
I only have one tiny nitpick:

You might want to mention that Wild Mages can't dual and, as SixOfSpades correctly mentioned, neither can Archers or Stalkers.

All-in-all a great FAQ with something that I lack, brevity [img]smile.gif[/img]

Edits:
----

Corrected the Ranger kit issue
Corrected the requirements for Ranger->Cleric
Corrected the fact that Wild Mages cannot dual
Edited comment about ranged weapons restrictions
Bolded comment about need for 2nd class to exceed 1st class
Added comment about 1st class not advancing anymore

Issues:
----
Triple-multiclassing not mentioned, since only those with the IQ of a rock( and I may be insulting rocks here...) will bother to ask about it. I still have some faith in humanity.

UAI exception not mentioned since it is only a minor one-off occurance. Unless other examples can be given.

CHA requirement for Druid->Fighter remains if only to drill in the fact of minimum requirements.

Maybe I'm being a rock here, but my recent Kensai=>Druid dual could use WW and GWW and Hardiness while still a level one druid. Is this what you wanted to know?

Looks like HLAs are excluded from the rule. Can somebody please confirm this?

I can confirm. My Wizard Slayer->Thief had 5 Hardinesses all through her Dual.

<font color=white> What about class abilities? like the Kensai's Kai abilitie?

Are those still open when you, lets say dual to a mage (IIRC, yes)? </font>

No, they are not, Annatar. HLAs seem to be the only abilities which are 'kept' throughout your whole second class.

Unique property of ToB HLAs mentioned.

Anything else to throw in or suggestions?