I have some wonderings about mod Soulafien.

Id like to know his stats, weapon profisencies and if he has the same model as he does without the mod...ill get him eventually but it will take a while because my computer keeps screwing up!

Howdy. Here's what I could tell you from my experience. He yaps a lot. You can romance him regardless of sex, I think. I never have because I always make male PC's. He adds some more, three I think, confrontations. I don't remember his stats from when I picked him up but right now I am at the end of TOB and this is how he is looking.

F/M level 21/19
mhThaco: -15
ohThaco: -12
#At per round: 5
Prof: Bastard sword ++
long sword ++
flail ++
long bow ++
Two weapon style ++
his Magic resistance is 94%

He also eventually gets a long sword called Tsuki no Ken
Equipped it provides:
Free action, luck, +2 Armor class bonus, +1 attacks per round, permanent Armor of Faith, Draw upon Holy Might, Death Ward, Negative Plane Prot. Chaotic Commands,
And each hit has a 50% chance of blinding the victim and inflicting 18 points of fire damage over the course of 3 seconds.

As far as mage spells goes he can cast 5 each of levels 1 through 5, 4 of levels 6, 7, and 8, and 1 level 9 spell.
He has the innate power to dimension door.

Hope this helps a little.

HE IS A GOD!!! i didn't know he would be so darn good! what about his str. and dex. and so on?

And, of course, his stats are:
STR 18/21
DEX 18
CON 10
INT 18
WIS 10
CHA 16

And with the sword's Draw Upon Holy Might his STR and DEX go up to 24 and his CON goes up to 17.

is he at level 21/19 when you find him or is he that when he is maxed out?

Maxed out. He joins you at +- your level.

ok, thats more realistic!

Gee, it's a good thing that that sword <font color=red>ISN'T GROSSLY OVERPOWERED OR ANYTHING!!!</font> Permanent Luck alone is too much.

He is *very* powerful in your party...

There is just one problem with that:
Spoiler:

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When bhodi turns him to undead (and she will if your romancing him or not) he is MEGA tough to beat. its like facing a duel wielding double attacking LICH/vampire; the only way to beat him as my sorcerer i found was to have protection from magical weapons up the WHOLE time (if its gone for more than 1 round, your probably in your grave) and let all of my other chars attack him with ranged weaponry. Note - he casts protection spells up the yin yang and has lich-immunity to spels/weapons, so this will be a long fight. Since your fighting bhodi and him at the same time heres how i did it:
Memorize spell sequencer with 3x fireball, spell trigger lower magic resist x3 chain contingency abizals horrid wilting x3, sneak into the room and manage to get close to bhodi/cast lower resist before she initiates dialogue. When battle starts her resist will be lowered, time stop + that chain cast spell (forgetname) and then cast comet/dragon breath all over along with various delayed blast fireballs and horrid wilting - make sure protection from magical weapons is last spellyou cast. when time resumes your contingency should fire; everything but bhodi and a couple helmet things should be alive. run around a bit to collect them, time stop again and fire off the rest of your sequencers and spels to kill off bhodi and helmets. Now all thats left is soula, keep protection from magic weapons up and shoot arrows at him till he time stops and hope you live through it.

If you want more info (thought this info on this thread might be enough), i have a thread opened called Problems with Mods, asking questions about sola. its on the first few pages.

Gee, it's a good thing that that sword <font color=red>ISN'T GROSSLY OVERPOWERED OR ANYTHING!!!</font> Permanent Luck alone is too much.</font>[/QUOTE]Wasn't sure if that was sarcasm there. ;)

Anyway, are those when equipped, or... can cast on self once a day? I sincerely hope it is the latter... ...

Well, I was laying the sarcasm on with a snow shovel, so yes, I hope you detected it. In retrospect, I'm amazed that the first thing I complained about was the Permanent Luck! I must have been so flabbergasted by the cheesiness of this thing that I didn't even stop to read the whole description, because Permanent Luck is worthless compared to <font size=5 color=gold>Permanent Armor of Faith.</font> Oh my god, give me a colossal @^$*##^! break here! Even *IF* the thing can only be used by Soluafein, it would be mere child's play to create a Fighter/Thief with the DoE and the Jansen Adventurewear--BAM, permanent 70% Physical Resistances, without even touching Hardiness, through the entire latter half of the game. And it gets even better! Because Armor of Faith doesn't just shield against Physical damage: Magic Damage, Fire, Magic Fire, Cold, Magic Cold, Acid, Electricity, and Poison all have their damage reduced by 25% as well.

This sword, apparently, was for people who weren't satisfied with the useless piece of junk known as Sanchuudoku.

Sometimes I wonder why the hell Weimer even bothers to write MODs, as it's painfully obvious he doesn't know JACK about game balance.

(Wow! A real, honest-to-god flame! I'm finally a man now!)

A little harsh there, SoS. Weimer does try his best to balance his mods, although I do concede that he does go overboard sometimes. One must also note that most of the crowd over at his forums are powergamers and/or cheaters. The former is okay, but the latter can really screw up the feedback data on his mods.

They think nothing of Ctrl+Ying everything that moves, or create a Kensai->Sorcerer. Things like that can seriously undermine whether a mod is balanced or not. I mean... if you are going to do the Improved Encounters by cheating... then what is the point of installing the Improved Encounters in the first place? If the response is to get the cool stuff, then I will just shake my head.

So I guess what I am trying to say here is, try to critisise constructively. I try by suggesting alternatives. Whether or not Weimer chooses to implement them is up to him, but at least he knows my opinion and what I think should be done, although I do go one step further by gathering opinions from the rest on this forum instead of e-mailing him my stance so that he knows I am being serious about it and that several people share my view.

That's his best?

I must concede that my own view is biased as well, as I am something of an "orthodox purist" about this game, and surrounded by others of like mind here at Ironworks. But even if Weimer's viewpoint has been completely skewed in the opposite direction by the powergaming fanatics, that still doesn't justify making a sword that would make Helm, Tempus, and Moradin lie down and weep with envy.

You know, I tried that. I tried that when he brought out the Rebalanced Shapeshifter, when he brought out the Impaler+4, and when he brought out Improved Kitthix. I didn't complain when he made the Holy Buckler of Amaunator more powerful than I'd intended. I suggested logical ways to tone down things like the Improved Staff of the Woodlands, Sorcerian Ring and Gloves of the Master Thief. And none of it did a damn bit of good. But, since it's always good policy to at least attempt to change the world:

<font color=white>Tsuki no Ken
THAC0 bonus: -3
Damage: 1D8+3, +1D4 Fire Damage
Proficiency: Long Sword
Attributes: While equipped, grants Negative Plane Protection, Chaotic Commands, and immunity to Charm and Domination spells.</font>

And looky there! It's still one heck of a cool sword--it makes Vampires and Mind Flayers get ready to wet their pants. (Do Vampires even _have_ bodily functions?)

Quote:

....I do go one step further by gathering opinions from the rest on this forum instead of e-mailing him my stance so that he knows I am being serious about it and that several people share my view.

Actually, with a thread title like "Solaufein Q's," weimer should come strolling along here of his own accord pretty soon, anyway. Here, you be the good cop & I'll be the bad cop. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-11-2003, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

Believe it or not, the sword (which is only available to high-level Sola, ToB-style) is actually under-powered compared to a bunch of other ToB and SoA weapons (Foebane? Ravager? Ages? Fury? Magi? Unyielding?). Permanent Luck is too strong in IWD2 -- in BG2 it's not as strong. The sword provides a few buffs ... but that's basically a convenience factor. By that point in the game protecting Sola from confusion is not really a big concern -- chaotic commands and the like are just gravy that fit with the theme.

Originally there was no Tsuki+5 -- just Tsuki+4. A number of players complained (rightly, in retrospect) that it was much too weak for ToB and that they lamented having to drop Sola's "signature weapon" in favor of something more effective.

Pretty much, yes.

And this is more fun than having Solaufein cast Hardiness how? :) Seriously -- Solaufein normally sits around with Pro-MW when there is any danger of him being hit by something important. If you're already taking 0 damage, a percentage reduction isn't that impressive.

... which is true. Eilistraee takes it away if any other party member ever uses it.

What does this hypothetical F/T have to do with Solaufein's sword?

Your argument actually seems to suggest (correctly!) that it is already quite possible to get very high physical resistances in BG2. In light of that, I'm not sure why giving AoF to Solaufein in ToB is such a big deal.

"A few?" I count ten. If that's your idea of "a few," I'd like to see what you consider overpowered. How many people value Belm, Kundane, or the Scarlet Ninja-to solely because of the extra attack? How many people value the Runehammer+5, just for the Negative Plane Protection? In case you're not as familiar with the Ironworks board as I am, I'll tell you: Plenty.

If anybody thinks that they're "forced to drop" what is pretty much a Godstick in favor of something "more effective" simply doesn't have the brains to realize that it's fully capable of granting Barbarians and Fighter/Thieves non-dispellable, permanent, 100% Physical resistances. Stick something like this on a character who already has close to 90% Magic Resistance, and you have just cheesed the game beyond all recognition. Congratulations.

And look! Now it's weaker, and has been for a while.

And look! After a long debate I have decided that I do not agree. That happens some times.

And look! After a long debate no one was able to bring forth any evidence beyond "I having a feeling that Imp Kitthix is strong" -- in all but one of my tests he died a horrible flaming death. Sure, he's great support. But he's not the second coming. The one person I remember who did some other battle testing came back with the conclusion that he was comparable to a Mordy (in the Oasis).

In a game where you can buy protection from undead scrolls, concerns about False Dawn didn't seem all that pressing to me. Compare Daystar's Sunray (which works on more than undead!).

I wouldn't go that far.

These abilities are larely useless for the only possible user given his initial magic resistance. Would you use a +3 sword with NPP and some fire damage when Ages, Fury, Angurvadal, the Runehammer, Foebane, etc., are available?

Since you cannot give it to a Barbarian or a Fighter/Thief, I'm not sure how this is relevant.

Ah, so here we have a knife with which to cut this block of cheese! All right, so even supposing you have already locked out any possible exploits to keep the weapon (e.g. Time Stop/Mind Flayer/devour Eilistraee), let's stick to just Solaufein. AoF + DoE + Hardiness = 85%, and if I knew the stats for the Yellow Dragon Scale I'd add them too. So, basically, all you can do is lower his impressive Magic Resistance so you can lower his impressive Saving Throws so you can hit him with a spell that won't be blocked by the Death Ward. Come on, here.

You're absolutely right. Let's give every recruitable NPC 50% physical resistances, immunity to +2 weapons or lower, and the ability to fly. And make it so they can all see invisible units, are immune to Time Stop, and don't have to actually cast any spells--they have an AI that automatically ForceSpells everything for them, so they don't have to worry about getting disrupted or hit by a Wizard Slayer. And if all else fails, give them the Big Metal Unit for free, in Chapter 2.

If one feels that Magic Resistance and Protection from Magical Weapons negate the need for Chaotic Commands and Physical Damage Resistance, then why have them at all? After all, in your opinion, you feel that they are useless right? So why not remove these 'useless' enchantments?

By tagging on more and more enchantments, you are making the weapon more powerful, whether you believe it or not. Not all Charm/Confusion/Hold spells can be negated by Magic Resistance, and Magic Resistance can be lowered, but an equipped immunity cannot be dispelled. A permanent Chaotic Commands is a 100% guarantee that the user cannot be affected by any mental spells. This is vastly different to depending on Magic Resistance.

Magic Resistance can be countered, the sword's Chaotic Commands cannot be countered.

Same thing with the Armour of Faith. It is guaranteed. There is a difference between guaranteed, and unguaranteed alternatives. Sola can have 45% Physical Damage resistances if he had his sword and the Defender of Easthaven( 85% with Hardiness). This is comparable to the Barbarian or Fighter/Thief with alternative setups.

That is not so bad. A minor thing in fact if you ask me, but, it is not just physical damage resistance that the sword grants. It is +25% resistance to almost everything in the game. If you tweak it to just Physical Damage resistance, then perhaps it will be more balanced.

Draw Upon Holy Might is another case of overdoing it. You may start pointing to Crom Faeyr, but, and this is a big but, Crom Faeyr only boosts your STR. Draw Upon Holy Might boosts 3 statistics, STR, CON and DEX. Again, this effect is undispellable which is pretty swell since those who have the spell have to suffer the duration and the chance of it being dispelled.

Permanent Luck is pretty inconsequential.

Permanent Death Ward and Negative Plane Protection is another matter. Comparisons to other weapons like the Runehammer is unbalanced, because you see, Runehammer does not have the other goodies that this sword has.

This sword basically takes the best of several weapons/items and magically combines them into ONE weapon. This is the crux of the problem I believe. The weapon has too many enchantments, and it just outshines too much.

A player can make Sola into what I like to call a Brick. A character that is near-nigh impossible to hurt.

Losing some of the enchantments will make it less of a... game-breaker, but still make it a good weapon.

[ 03-11-2003, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

And look! Now it's weaker, and has been for a while.</font>[/QUOTE]I heard that you'd toned down the Greater Werebears, but nothing about the Shapeshifter itself. And, since I didn't feel like waltzing through the game escorted by my own Regenerating Iron Golem, I uninstalled it and have been free to cast the normal (and perfectly sufficient) Conjure Animals ever since.

And look! After a long debate no one was able to bring forth any evidence beyond "I having a feeling that Imp Kitthix is strong" -- in all but one of my tests he died a horrible flaming death. Sure, he's great support. But he's not the second coming. The one person I remember who did some other battle testing came back with the conclusion that he was comparable to a Mordy (in the Oasis).</font>[/QUOTE]When a Level 8 Fighter can use a summon that can easily destroy his entire party, something just smells funny. People keep suggesting "Make it wait until Chapter 6!" to you, but you never seem to listen....

In a game where you can buy protection from undead scrolls, concerns about False Dawn didn't seem all that pressing to me. Compare Daystar's Sunray (which works on more than undead!).</font>[/QUOTE]The extra False Dawn is indeed trivial, but I see no reason whatsoever for the (undocumented) +5% Magic Resistance. PfU scrolls are only for cheese, or for Solo Monks who want to take on Bodhi.

I wouldn't go that far.</font>[/QUOTE]All right, I stand corrected on that point.

These abilities are larely useless for the only possible user given his initial magic resistance. Would you use a +3 sword with NPP and some fire damage when Ages, Fury, Angurvadal, the Runehammer, Foebane, etc., are available?</font>[/QUOTE]Since Level Drain and Psionics both ignore Magic Resistance, yes I would, in certain circumstances. And do you honestly mean to tell me you think this sword is on a level with things like Angurvadal? Even granted the one saving grace that only Solaufein can wield it, it's still even worse than things like the Ravager--which is yet another thing you're immune to while holding this nice shiny bit of metal.

OK, so if you've dedicated most of your game to making Solaufein hard to kill in melee, for the dozen rounds while Hardiness lasts you will succeed in giving him 85% damage resistance. I'd still rather carry a stack of 5 pro-mw scrolls.

Adamantium Golems have more resistance than that and they still fall to concerted attacks. Solaufein can as well -- the Eclipse fight and the Demogorgon guardians are excellent examples. A few enemies whirlwinding him (or just attacking him with high rates of fire) will suffice.

As for the magical attacks: some hypothetical PC I might posit with the Cloak of Cheese and the Belt of Inertial Barrier would be even more protected from damaging spells. Haer'Dalis in ToB starts with 15% physical resistances and can get (if memory serves) UAI. 15% + Jansen + DoE is non-trivial and doesn't rely on hardiness timing. If you look hard enough, the extant NPCs can already play these games.

I'm not going to argue that Solaufein is weak. Sure, he's strong. But so is everything else in ToB, notably including Player1! Player1 (or an NPC with that chainmail) can get immunity to all weapons for as long as it can cast pro-mw. I'd fear that more than Solaufein. Other examples abound. There are many cases where I'd rather have Keldorn's active dispel magic than Solaufein's passive magic resistance.

If you're not having fun with the mod, don't play with it.

You asked facetiously earlier why I bother with IE modding. You may want to see if you can come up with a realistic answer.

Fair enough. The fact remains, they are weaker than when you last tried. Probably not enough to make you happy, however.

A level 1 magic user can case Gate from a scroll in BG2. This "just smells funny" reason seems unconvincing to me.

Thank you for pointing out that bug. I just fixed it locally.

Sure. In a mind flayer fight with no potions available I might use such a sword. In a vampire fight with no pro-mw and no other npp items available I might use such a sword.

I mean to tell you that it is on a level with Ages +5, Fury, Foebane +5, Ravager, Magi, Carso, etc.

I'm afraid that we (and most of the people I get feedback from) part company here. Ravager+6 + Whirlwind (or Imp Haste) is quite, quite strong.

Adamantium Golems do not have the advantage of Mirror Image, Stoneskins, high Attacks per Round, etc... that Sola will have. As I mentioned above, the sword enables Sola to become a Brick with little effort on his part. It is not inconceivable that a player can make a Simulacrum clone of Sola and use it for Operation Drow Shield where enemies focus most of their attacks on it while everybody else attacks from range.

Just to put a spin on this, what would you consider to be Sola's weakness?

That low-quality pulp paper that gets all yellow after a few years. And folding down the corners of pages. Solaufein must save vs. being really, really appalled.

Although Solaufein might actually respect the dog-earing of pages, since it is a reader "convenience." [img]smile.gif[/img]

I would hardly call the time it takes to get Solaufein a few Hardinesses "most of my game," especially considering the rate at which Multiclasses gain HLA's.

Are you trying to make 85% sound like it's less than worthwhile? And please tell me what magic store you're pulling all these PfMW scrolls from.

Yeah--Adamantite Golems are stupid, and if you take them one at a time and spread the damage among your party you don't even need the FoA to take them down. But don't try to say that any Tank worth his salt must have at least the same Resistances as an Adamantite Golem.

3x Skull Trap, anyone? 3x Cone of Cold? Comet? Time Stop->Harm? All of which take less time in battle than trying to target things like Lower Resistance, Breach, or Pierce Shield on a Mirror Imaged, Imp.Invisible Solaufein (especially during that period when you've seen fit to turn him into a Lich as well).

Just how much do you depend on that spell? And just how many of the recruitable NPCs do you feel should be equal in power to the prophecied Bhaalspawn, Destroyer of the Five?

And there are a whole bunch of cases where I'd rather have the Magic Resistance: Every Beholder fight in the entire game, for a start.

If you're not having fun with the mod, don't play with it.</font>[/QUOTE]That plan's worked well for me so far. I was planning on downloading Sola to try him out, but hearing about this sword has definitely changed my tune. If you've tweaked the enemies to be expecting me to be carrying things like this, that'll change it even more.

....because there isn't much interest in MODs for first-person shooters?

Note that my list of "Things to give every recruitable NPC" was not as flippant as it may have seemed. With the exception of flight, I think every single one of those powers has been graciously bestowed by thee on at least one of your creations. Some have their fair share of merit, others have less. (IMHO, of course.)

Fair enough. The fact remains, they are weaker than when you last tried. Probably not enough to make you happy, however.</font>[/QUOTE]I'm not pleased by weakness, I'm pleased by realism and challenging, fun playability. Having a Tank who can just stand there and not do a damn thing while enemies pound on him all day, unable to get past his Regeneration, is neither challenging nor fun to me.

A level 1 magic user can case Gate from a scroll in BG2. This "just smells funny" reason seems unconvincing to me.</font>[/QUOTE]I gave you a scenario that can actually happen, quite easily in fact, and I'll thank you to do the same for me. Show me a Level 1 Wizard in Suldenessellar and I'll show you a cheater.

Thank you for pointing out that bug. I just fixed it locally.</font>[/QUOTE]The HBoA has been up there for how long, and I'm the first to notice? Freaky.

I mean to tell you that it is on a level with Ages +5, Fury, Foebane +5, Ravager, Magi, Carso, etc.</font>[/QUOTE]I see. New items must be judged with respect to the most powerful, potentially game-breaking weapons available. Simple, really.

What about a dualled level one mage...? ;)

Okay, that I'll grant you. Open the door in Hell, cast Gate and RUN.... and hope the Pit Fiend can take on 2 Balors, 2 Glabrezu and the Slayer/Mage. If not.....

"Ho! I cast ye back unto the Abyss, foul demons! Fear the might of my Sling of Everard, and my....umm....Boots of Speed! (Which I should be using right about now, actually...)"

[ADD:]It's been a fun 5 hours, but I'm going to bed now. Or maybe I'll start my homework. One of the two. See y'all.[/ADD]

[ 03-11-2003, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

Never mind all the fancy bonuses. Have you people looked at the sheer damage output of this sword? [img]smile.gif[/img] The thing does 1-8 base, has a +5 damage bonus, has a 50% chance of doing an extra <font color=red>18</font> fire damage, AND it can push Sola's STR score to 24 for an extra +9 damage.

Using Sola's unmodified Strength score (18/21) as a basis:

(1 + 8)/2 + 5 + (18 x 0.5) + (12-3) = 27.5

Crikey! That's 8 pts higher average damage than the FoA +5 :eek:

Sure, FoA has a 33% chance of slowing the opponent, but this thing has a 50% chance of blinding the target, which is an even MORE powerful effect than slow. I'd suspect it bypasses both saves and MR as well.

Furthermore, it has an extra attack, ensuring that Sola will never go below 5 APR and always have GWW rate of fire when Imp Hasted. The sword will also give him a +10 THAC0 boost due to increased STR.

Furthermore, the DUHM will give Sola such a great DEX boost that he'll receive an extra +2 AC Bonus on top of the existing +2 AC this sword gives him. The DUHM will also grant him a huge life bonus, and thus remove the only weakness Sola EVER had - his poor CON.

Without even mentioning things like CC, AoF, DW, NPP, or FA, this sword is already the by far most powerful weapon in the game both defensively and offensively. No other weapon in the game even comes close to it's average damage and there's not even a bloody shield in the game that can match it's defensive powers.

There are two redeeming features of this sword the way I see it

The one thing holding this thing back is the fact that the Moonray ability he can get instead of this sword is even MORE wicked.

[ 03-11-2003, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

-- Dundee -- everything you have said is true, but I can't see it is an argument against Tsuki per se. Mordy's Sword is still a better wall. You don't need Solaufein to dominate the game if you're careful with Sim (or Mislead or PI).

The traditional weakness ascribed to Solaufein is that he is too distant -- most players seem to wish that he were a bit more affectionate. There is much more activity in the Solaufein forums now discussing possible flirts for him than there has been discussing his tactical merits. Similarly, the perennial topic of possible romances and redemptions for Valen gets much more attention than her phenominal cosmic powers, itty-bitty living space, or her deadly hunters. In my personal opinion, Solaufein's weakness is that he lacks integrity: there's a part of me that always wishes I had made a less accepting Solaufein that would reject players that gave philosophical responses with which he disagreed.

To answer your question with a more tactical slant, Solaufein's two big weaknesses in my mind are fragility and poor spell memorization. The romance will address one of these but not both.

-- Six -- I think this is the point in the debate where we should recognize that nothing constructive will be gained by going forward. As much as I would love to discuss spelling (see AR1202.ARE for another example) or the Cloak of Cheese vs. Cone of Cold, I think it will be more useful for me to state a bunch of tautologies and then a bunch of opinions.

Utility is subjective (or context-dependent). Fury is generally considered to be a strong weapon. However, in a party of six clerics it cannot be used (bladed weapon). The Shield of Reflection is useless against Firkraag. Ages won't help you against Kangaxx. Similarly, the utility of Sola's blade must be measured in context.

It is almost certain that we have different average contexts in mind. For example, I don't recall ever encountering an enemy that used 3x Cone of Cold in BG2. As a result, I tend not to judge things based on it. In my mind, there are really only about ten difficult battles in the game (and I wrote five of them expressly for that purpose). Thus I find it particularly easy to compare items like Tsuki to one-shot items like pro-mw scrolls of special potions: if you are only concerned about a dozen fights, rationing your equipment so that you can use some 'good stuff' in each one is not difficult. Just to restate this: in my mind I don't really care about, say, the Trolls in the Druid Grove because you are going to beat them no matter what. This is my personal opinion: I don't try to judge the differences between Ravager and Foebane based on how they do against shadow thieves.

My context assumes players who have access to the identified descriptions and can do the math. Given that Ages and Fury already exist in BG2, items that are vastly inferior but available at the same time will only be used by players who have a specific (unique, presumably) role-playing reason to do so. Want to use Namarra because your character's backstory makes the silence power or the fact that you got it from a skeleton king particularly appealing? Great! However, if you already have a reason like that then it doesn't matter what I do with some newly introduced weapon: it could be the Rift Device on a stick or a -3 dagger: you're still using Namarra. Barring that, and given that BG2 already exists, new items must be competitive with existing powerful items or they will not be used. I could make a weapon that was comparable to the bard-killing scimitar. It would get a comparable amount of use.

I write mods for myself. I am not interesting in spending the time to code up an item and its backstory and the challenges you must overcome to obtain it ... if I'm just going to sell it in all cases.

Given this subjective context, your "realism" is my "weakness". Actually, it is my personal opinion that BG2 features an incredible wealth of over-powered magical items. However, *given that*, new items must also be powerful. Otherwise only characters with special backstories or low INT will take them. I judge new items against the items that characters are actually using. ( Exception: the item upgrade mod was created for a different reason and is based on the averaged input of a large number of people. )

Some people think that the purpose of playing a game is to be fair (or realistic). I disagree. I think that the purpose of playing a game is to have fun. When I play chess against my grade-school sister I often remove some of my pieces before the start of the game or give her extra ones. This unfairness is introduced in order to make the game more fun for both of us. Interestingly enough, it is a fairly exact analogy for what happens in BG2. The enemies are given queens that you don't have (mind flayer psionics, red dragon breath, special immunities, massive numbers, whatever) in order to keep things interesting. In a "fair" fight your human intelligence would win every time.

-- Rataxes -- Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I must have failed to take into account the extra Str bonus (or the jump from 25% to 50%) when I did the math a long time ago. It was never my intention to make Tsuki a particularly *damaging* weapon.

Time to change that. While I don't agree that Blindness is as powerful as Slow, the 50%/blind/18 could stand to go back to 25%/blind/12 following your math. In addition, it was recently pointed out to me that the NPP ability on the blade is largely irrelevant: while I'm here there's no reason not to remove it.

In general, however, we never seem to include the STR damage bonus when looking at weapons. For example, Crom Faeyr:

Crom: 2d4+3 +5 elec +14 (str damage bonus) = 5+3+5+14 = 27

... also ends up being just as high. I'm not saying that it's not real, just that it's not normally part of the consideration.

[ 03-11-2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: weimer ]

As I was walking home last night, I realized that I really should apologize to weimer. Some of my comments were more inflammatory than constructive (such as my "first-person shooter" remark), and were more likely to cause weimer to never speak to me again than to listen attentively and try to work out a solution. This may have been due to the fact that I'd had something of a bad day (In my Speech & Argumentation class, my debate partner who went before me accidentally researched the same part of the topic that I was supposed to research, thereby stealing most of my key points and forcing me to ad-lib more than half of my argument, which of course made me look like a bozo), so last night, my Inner Troll was restless, and just begging for a chance to Run Free And Unfettered.

Now, with that said, let's get down to the second reason for this post: Sooner or later, weimer, you're just going to have to face up to it--you are a powergamer. Several factors (such as the fact that you still haven't corrected the way that Rings of Preservation can be worn with magical armor) prove this quite clearly. Now, it's one thing to create overpowered items; I can understand that, as many members of your public are powergamers themselves, and keep pushing you for bigger and badder stuff. Obliging them is not, in and of itself, a bad thing. But it's an entirely different matter when you come to the forums and argue that something like Tsuki no Ken (or Throwing Impaler, or Imp. Kitthix, etc) is not overpowered, or that you don't see how it makes the game too easy. For a clear delineation of where you stand on the powergamer/roleplayer continuum, take a look at the stats you gave Solaufein, and compare them with the stats that jcompton gave Kelsey. Even *IF* Sola's stats are his original, unMODded BG2, he's still quite clearly a "powergamer roll:" The stats he wants are 18, the other ones are 10. Kelsey, however, is quite the opposite: Only one of his stats, CON, is at its effective maximum, and even that's only due to his Cloak.

I am not totally against powergaming, but the extent to which you have chosen to let it influence your choices is a tad extreme. This is just my opinion though.

Personally, I prefer powergaming roleplay, where both sides of the coin determine what should be allowed. No other weapon that I know of, have as much enchantments as Sola's sword.

As for Blindness... it can be deadlier than Slow due to ranged attacks. Nature's Beauty is a wonderful example of a bugged spell to illustrate this.

As for Sola's stats. This is from his .cre file.

STR: 17
DEX: 16
CON: 15( heh)
INT: 14
WIS: 11
CHA: 10

Oh, damn! I missed all the fun! Well, time to chime in. [img]smile.gif[/img]

First... and i know i might be stepping out of line here, and this may sound a bit arrogant, but, guys... this is a computer game. Tsuki being overpowered, or Sola's perfect stats are all part of BG2. It has no (well, it shouldn't have any) effect whatsoever on your real life... so there's really no need to get angry. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now.... Let's talk BG2. ;)

I have to agree with Rataxes. Tsuki obivously needs to be toned down... but offensively, not defensively. Sola is a Fighter/Mage. Between Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Mislead and Pro-Magic-Weapons, he can become melee-invulnerable in mere seconds (or even less, thanks to triggers). Thanks to his Drowish MR, he can also become quite safe from magical attacks. Ergo, the best we can do in order to balance Tsuki a bit is to remove some of its more offensive capabilities. The sheer amount of damage it deals was already mentioned by Rataxes... so i won't repeat it. However, i think cancelling the extra attack per round is in order. Belm, Kundane and Scarlet are all ToB-class off hand weapons - especially when being Imp. Haste becomes a second nature to you - and adding Tsuki to this list is... well, problematic, to say the least.

And now, when we're done with Tsuki... it's Bloodbane's turn. :D

Really, I don't think Kelsey's stats compared to Solaufein's stats says much. Solaufein is clearly min/maxed. But really, look at Kelsey, keeping in mind that sorcerers don't really have a prime attribute in BG2--

His STR is on the high side of average because I wanted him to be able to carry stuff.
His DEX is high because I wanted him to be slightly harder to kill, particularly via backstab (yes, stoneskins, but there's always the chance you run out)
His CON is high because I wanted him to be slightly harder to kill.
His INT and WIS are moderate because it suits the character... but in all honesty, unless a mindflayer walks up to him his INT is irrelevant and unless you want to give him Limited Wish, his WIS is irrelevant.
And CHA is on the high side because you're supposed to believe he's likeable.

So my motives were hardly pure. [img]smile.gif[/img] I just didn't see a need to put 18s on his sheet, but he's decidedly and notably above average.

I'm not entirely certain what other penalties blinded creatures get, but I do know that blinded enemies will act as though they were feebleminded unless you get right next to them, and that it gives a cumulative -10 THAC0 penalty (at least that's what I get when blinded). IMHO that's more powerful than a cumulative -4 THACO/AC penalty and APR cut in half. Hell, immunity to Blindless is even more rare than immunity to Slow.

You also have to take the base STR into consideration. A person with 19 base STR would for example only get +7 dmg with the Crom Faeyr, since he already had a +7 Bonus to begin with. Crom Faeyr can indeed be one of the most damaging weapons in the game because of this, but if one wears the belt of Fire Giant Strength for instance, it's relative damage compared to other weapons is decreased.

Sola already has a +3 Dmg Bonus from his 18/21 STR, so the average damage would only be 24 for him. If he wore the belt of Fire Giant Strength, the relative damage would be even less.

The Moonblade is somewhat affected by this as well, and it's true that FoA +5 is a more damaging weapon in the hands of Sola if you combine it with Crom Faeyr, but then you will have used two weapons to achieve the same offensive power that the Moonblade achieves by itself. Using the Moonblade, you're free to use another weapon in the 2nd slot, or even use a shield (the APR would still be the same as when dual-wielding FoA and CF, since it has +1 APR).

[ 03-11-2003, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

Dundee: Those stats you quoted were from the unMODded Solaufein, correct?

Sure, we're just discussing a computer game here, but it's an "emotional commitment" kind of thing: We've devoted so much of our time and brainpower to it that it MUST be incredibly important. How many people argue over which baseball team is better? For an even better example, how many Europeans were killed during I-don't-even-remember-which-war-it-was, when all they were fighting about was whether or not the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost were separate entities, or simply facets of a single, indivisible godhead?

I would tone Tsuki down a lot more than just offensively: Sola's MR, Saves, combat protections and spell protections make him immune to damn near everything, and this sword would make him immune to just about everything else. For defensive powers, this thing beats out even the Greater Werewolf Paw--and can be easily left in the offhand, as well, to make room for Sanchuudoku.

Kelsey's stats are indeed above average for Your Typical Citizen, but they're just about average for Your Typical Adventurer. Somehow I can't see someone like Neeber (who may be presumed to have all 9's for stats) even surviving long enough to meet you in, say, a jail cell in the Temple Ruins. And Kelsey's STR isn't even on the high side: Judging by the Weight Allowance table, my own STR is 13 or 14 (I can indeed carry 150 lbs, but I get Encumbered: Slowed), and I'm anything but big & beefy.