I was wondering about a couple things so I thought I would pole the waters so to speak, on the subject of cheating. What do people consider to be cheating? I have realized that with the experience cap often multi classers reach the cap before they fully level up. I have also heard that you could remove this...xp cap. So, I was wondering whether or not the good users of this forums could enlighten me on whether or not they think that this is cheating, and then describe and discuss what IS considered by said users to be cheating. Thanks a lot.

i dont think removing the xp cap is cheating, but spawning items with theCLUA console is. I think it should be used either if you ablosutely MUST or you have already beaten the game and want to see what you can get for kicks and gigles.

Cheating that I don't really consider cheating would be limited to...

- XP Cap remover (I feel like it's cheating to put it in there in the first place! [img]smile.gif[/img]
- fixing a bug (i.e. a person is supposed to be *here*, but he's not so you spawn him in or one of your guys gets "stuck" & won't move so warp to a different area)
- retrieving a "forgotten" quest item (you legitimately found the item but forgot where you put it - this only happened to me once & since then I've learned the value of having a central storage location - typically my Stronghold)
- beating an "impossible" battle (this one's a bit of a grey area, but if you absolutely can't get past a certain battle after many reloads, to the point where you're considering quitting the game entirely, then by all means, cheat - this applies to annoying mazes as well, IMO)

Beyond that, though, I'd recommend completing the game at least once before cheating, but after that... cheat away, guilt-free! It's fun to create an uber-Fighter with all the best weapons & stomp everyone or make a Sorcerer with a Wild Mage kit, for instance (or, for that matter, a weakling with low HP, just to see if you can make it through). [img]smile.gif[/img]

- Imrahil

Hmm, I think any editing, with the exception of legitimate bug fixing, is cheating. Do I cheat? Er, next question please.

Bow to the meow

<font color="lightblue">For BG2 atleast, I would say cheating is anything that uses a third-party program past Bioware and Baldurdash patches, or directly editing the game code.
On your first game, I would push for no cheating what so ever (unless you run into an annoying bug - after you have made sure that it is a bug). After that, though, there are mods about. These *are* cheating IMO, but they are justified on a repeat-play because they bring a fresh challenge to the game (or get you into the game itself a fair sight faster... )

Obviously, this definition doesn`t work for some other games, where you simply have to type something for invincibility, without having to edit any files. </font>

The first few times i played through was in the protective sanctuary of a non-online house. Fun. After that i stumbled into IW and before long was educated in the art of cheating (you lot have corrupted me [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img] ). I now use the cheats that are not really cheats. In fact i wonder how i ever managed to do without some of them. CTRL-jumping is essential. SetCurrentXP(x) is not. CTRL-Y, why bother playing the game in the first place.

This is only whilst playing the game.

When exploring weapon combos, spell tactics, battle strategies, multi-class combinations or whatever, cheats are essential. You're not seriously going to start a new game with a halfling sorceror to find out if his energy blades spell is effective against the Big M without cheating!

Indeed, the cheats are not implemented into the game to help players who are too stupid or have ADD. They are made to help designers and playtesters get the job done before the game technology is made obsolete.
IMO the only reason the cheats are not taken out of the game before release is to help people with the brains and motivation to design mods for the benefit of all users.

The first time I EVER used a cheat for BG2 was on my second run-through. I didn't do the thieves guild on my first go, this time I was playing a Thief so obviously I wanted to clear out Mae'Var
SPOILER !!!!!!!!!!!
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after doing the first couple of tasks for mae'var and edwin, the red wizard confronted me with the truth and I denied. he then left with a certain quest needed item and after HOURS of beating my head against a wall I realised I wasn't getting into the strong box for either love or money. the search online began and eventually I came across a program called shadow keeper, and the key was mine. I have since discovered my mistake (with edwin that is...)
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END of SPOILER

this sort of situation is when it's legitimate to cheat. (I'd saved over any chance of going back and replaying the encounter, and I wasn't going to start a whole new game just because of this). ctrl-j to jump about is OK as a time saver, but not to teleport out of difficult situations (although you should be careful not to teleport away from someone trying to innitiate dialogue). ctrl-y is just wrong. but why are mods cheating LennonCook ???
I use many mods now, eg Valen, Nalia, Imoen, Tashia. these are all good roleplay mods that just add a new character (and all are well balanced IMHO). expanded thief stronghold makes things lots bloody HARDER ! and the item upgrade mod ?? well you DO get uber-weapons, but you have to pay a lot for them, both in gold and equipment.

Cheating or whatnot...I use cheats if I feel for it. If theres an item I need for some purpose and it lies in an inaccesible area or lies afar far away in a place that I've been before, I'll use the Clua Console to get it instead of wasting time going back and find it. I dont want to waste my time and when I see that I will waste my time on doing something, I'll use the console instead. Also spellscrolls that Im unable to find, though I have been looking for it anywhere, I will use the Clua Console to get them. It's happend twice that I used SetCurrentXP...first time was after Nalias Keep...I'd done everything right, been nice to the mother and everything but I only got 1000 xp points when completing the quest. Usually you got 40k. I asked in this forum what might have been the cause but there was no logical answer. I gave myself the XP reward and moved on...
The second time was when I moved onto ToB... I used the XP cap remover and had had a lvl 19-21 party...Now when moving onto ToB the XP is reset to the e XP cap in BG2 which means I would still be lvl 19-21 but have the xp of a lvl 18-20 party... Lots of XP was lost so I adjusted it back to the XP they had after defeating Irenicus.

I only use cheats when somethings wrong, a bug occur or I simply dont want to waste my time...

<font color="deepskyblue">I use cheats and I enjoy them. After all, it is just a game. If bending a few rules makes it more enjoyable for me, I see no problem with it.

I've never used CLUA to give myself EXP points, but I have given myself a ton of gold and a case full of Identify scrolls using it. That just made the game easier as I got into the more difficult encounters and ended up getting 5 or 6 magic items after the battle. I'm not going to trade my Magic Missiles for Identify, so I just added scrolls as needed.

I did take advantage of a recurring bug in BGII that allows you to PAUSE the game and Replay a scene to keep getting Quest Experience over and over. Usually, I would do this enough times to raise everybody one level.

I've also used CLUA to get items from alternate sites (like Arundors Abode) that I really liked or that suited my characters well.

The one thing I found by doing this was that it DID tend to make the game grow dull after awhile. After defeating the first two dragons, the Guarded Compound, and the Twisted Rune....I found the game became less and less enjoyable. Why?? Because I was "steamrolling" over all the enemies I encountered while taking only minimal damage to my party in the process. I got so bored in the Underdark that I actually quit playing the game for over 2 months.

One area where I firmly disagree with most of the other posters is that you should wait until you beat the game once before using any cheats. :eek: To me, the purpose of cheats is to make the game easier or more survivable. And the time to do that is when you are learning the game..not after you've already beaten it. You want to make the challenges harder as you go along...not easier.

I am currently playing my 2nd game of BGII. This time, I have only used 1 cheat..and that was to give my assassin a custom-made item that doesn't seriously alter game balance. I've also installed several Weimer Mods. And I disagree that this is cheating. On my first trip through (without the Mods), I defeated Ilyich and his friends in Chateau Irenicus with a Stinking Cloud followed by a Fireball (yawn). After installing the Tactics Mod, I spent an entire weekend trying to find a way to defeat them. That's not cheating, that's improving the challenges of the game.

As I play BGII more and more, I use cheats less and less. That way, the game becomes more challenging each time I play it.</font>

I think LennonCook is mostly right. Here are my definitions:
Cheating = using any kind of "third party" programs (programs, which are not authorized by the creators of the game) for modifying the game behavior. Using binary editors, game editors, viewers, or special programs that interfere with the game run is cheating.
Cheezy style = taking advantage from an obvious bug or misunderstanding in the game.
Let us note, that using CLUA Console or "cheat codes" is not cheating because it is an integral and documented part of the game. IMO, the console and the "cheat codes" should not be present in the game at all. Otherwise, we cannot sentence players which begin the game with Blackrazors in hands of the "heroes".
On the other hand, "mods" are more difficult question. If you install a "mod" then you are playing a different game. Therefore, it's a question whether a "mod" is cheating. IMO, the XP cap remover is a "mod".

I disagree, mods in BG2 either: Fix Bugs, Make the game more challeging, Make the game more enjoyable. I wouldnt consider mods as cheats. Trainers and hacks would be cheats. Like a GOD mode trainer, or a 1000000 gold when pressing spacebar trainer would be considered as a cheat. Though you dont need trainers in this game cuz you got the allmighty CLUAConsole which IMO is Biowares own trainer that lets you acces most cheats anyway. I dont see any trouble using cheats as long as you enjoy the game yourself. If a guy wants to start out with the best equipment in the game as a lvl 40 character and he enjoyes that, then let him!

Ok, I think to allow my multi-class chars to reach highest levels i'm going to remove the xp cap, could anyone tell me how I can go about doing this?

I would agree for the finding of items missed because I've missed Gaal's key and can't get Kan'rax's body parts otherwise.

I hate the first two chapters. I use the cheats to set xp to 900k then jump ahead to chapter 3, when the game gets good...
jumping's great, item imports are nice when you realize you screwed up your character, then go to multi and replace him, and need to get his stuff back. If you went to a location where you could legitimately buy an item that you wanted, but you find that you cannot go back- i don't think it's cheating to import the item. When you're running a solo archer and they are saved in a dungeon without any ammo, i dont think its cheating to import some straight normal arrows that you could find on any goblin. Though the dispel arrows make any wizard or dragon fight disgustingly easy. i can honestly say that i've never made it through the game without cheating, simply because the pace is slow without it. Then again, all of my experiences with parties have been failures, i made it almost through the underdark with my solo sorcerer (first time i played)...then there were the uber mindflayers, with all the spell immune sludges, and drow...and it was bad, because i had somehow managed to find myself there at level 12.

My current endeavor is to find a 3 PC party that is versitile, and as easy to control as a solo character. I'm thinking a 3-theif combo...

To me, that example is cheating as the game is designed in that way. It's a bad design decision (there's no plot reason for it to be so), but I'll abide by that. Warping in items that you could have got, but forgot/left behind/dropped accidently is a different matter.

well in my opinion cheating is a dangerous thing because:

1. it spoils your appetite of challenge

2. it spoils the essence of the game

3. it spoils the intention of the game

4. it spoils your abilities (whatdayahthinkyouare after the game huh? better play solitaire)

hey cheating peeps... heres a good cheat

press
ctrl f4 then click okay

thats will blast your enemies into oblivion

This is just MHO, but i find it seriously hard to comprehend enjoying a game like that. The only possible bit of excitement you're likely to get is discovering the one and only item/quest/whatever that you failed to find in your previous games. First time gamers who utilize this are either incredibly important people with way to much workload in their lives, or people with ADD.

Oh, and i do realise that this is only a hypothetical situation. At least, i shudder to think otherwise.

Disclaimer: Uhh.. I hold nothing against people who have no attention span. They're just stupid is all. ;)

[Edit: oops, it must have been a hard night. Just pressed add reply without actually writing anything. Well, either a hard night, or i have ADD. [img]smile.gif[/img] ]

To me, that example is cheating as the game is designed in that way. It's a bad design decision (there's no plot reason for it to be so), but I'll abide by that. Warping in items that you could have got, but forgot/left behind/dropped accidently is a different matter.</font>[/QUOTE]Gaal's key is a quest item and should not dissappear under any circumstances. If you missed it because you didn't join the cult (side with Gaal) then it still should be around some place. If it wasn't dropped when you killed him, check in all the chests and whatnots in the cult area.

Or you could just cheat.

[ 01-11-2003, 05:51 AM: Message edited by: Sever ]

If you kill Gaal before chatting to him you can NEVER get his key. It's obviously a deliberate decision on the part of the designers, therefore I'd abide with it (cluaconsole in this case IS cheating IMO). Personally I think it sucks, but I didn't write the game... If you'd talked to him then dropped the key somewhere that might be a different matter.

Thoughts on "cheating."

1) How does one "cheat" in a game he plays by himself? I rather thought "cheating" was doing something in a competition not allowed under the rules in order to defeat one's opponent. Since CRPG games don't have "opponents" in any reasonable sense of the word, how can one cheat? Anything that adds to one's enjoyment in playing (or replaying) a game is hardly something to be ashamed of, rather it should be celebrated.

2) I've noted that many people denigrate "uber" characters as "unrealistic" or "cheating," and in the latest Bioware product, Icewind Dale 2, the design team decided that all characters should start out with equal points to add to their ability scores, permitting only the creation of rather pedestrian party members. This is silly, and IMO the programs MudMaster has made for the Infinity Engine games are the most useful "cheats" going. See, I like realistic characters, and I've known too many intelligent fighters to believe that an 18 strength necessarily indicates a 3 intelligence. Let me tell you about a friend of mine, named Allen. He is a 6-6 black dude, about 40 right now, who served for several years in the USMC's Force Recon. Force Recon is the USMC's equivilant of the SEALS or the Green Berets. Allen is very big, very strong, and very fast. He has a second or third degree black belt in some form or other of karate, and is an expert marksman in so many weapons you might as well stop counting. He also has a certified IQ of 145 and writes and studies poetry in his leisure time. He is qualified as both a combat medic and an explosives export, and works as a gunsmith/armorer these days. Now,this is a real person, and he's not so different from many people I've known who were in one form of Special Forces or other. How do you create such a character in a CRPG game without resorting to "cheating," unless you want to roll dice for an hour or so to "legitimately" come up with his stats, which probably would add up altogether to around 95-100 ability points?

3) The thing that confuses me most about the "cheating" issue is simply this: why is it an issue at all? Who is grading us on how we play a silly computer game? What difference does it make how we go about doing it? What bragging rights, monetary awards, or potential career advancements are at stake that makes "cheating" in a computer game an action to be deplored or defended?

4) As far as the issue of the intent of the designers is concerned, I find that a rather strange thing to worry about, also. Whose game is it, anyway? I've been a DM since the original D&D rules came out in 1976, and I always thought that the idea of creating a world was to give the players an opportunity to, ah, role-play. I'm not trying to beat my players, and certainly I don't think I'm "competing" with the Bioware design team when I play one of their products. The world-builder creates a world for the players to adventure in. After that, the "game" is "created" by the players, and how they go about it is their business. Surely, this is all the more so the case in a CRPG, which is not interactive in the first place.

5) In sum: cheat away. Whatever floats your boat. And let's face it, fans, replaying BG2 or any CRPG multiple times without some form of "cheating" or third-party assistance would get very old very fast.

Malthaussen

Maybe some minor spoilers.

Is this what happens if you run riot and kill everyone as opposed to joining the cult and investigating. I've never done it the straight out massacre way. [starting to wonder if i'm missing out on something] The two courses are the good; joining and investigating on Helm's behalf, and the bad; doin it your own way. Assuming that these are the only options, that means that by doin it the good way you get to explore deeper into the sewers and get access to both a good quest and an evil quest (assuming kangaxx is evil which is what i consider it to be). By doing it the evil way, both the good and bad quests are not achievable. "Evil will oft shall evil marr," or something.

It seams strange that the evil option closes other evil doors. I've always considered the kangaxx quest to be evil in alignment but maybe the designers thought otherwise. Who, but they, can say? Anyways, i'm drifting OT (and to ZZs unless i can stop talking about kangaxx).

1) There are no real opponents, true, except for the one who is actually playing; You. I don't know how many times people used to tell me this when i was younger (and i can't believe that i'm saying it now) but "cheating [the computer] is cheating yourself" of the enjoyment/satisfaction you get when you achieve your goal without cheating. Bragging rights are fun, though they count for little as long as Dundee's here [img]smile.gif[/img] (not many tactics/victories i can think of that haven't been posted by Dundee already) and there's not a dog in hell's chance that any of us are likely to gain financially from doing it legit (or illegit). What then does that leave us with? A shallow, empty shell of a game? This forum would be pretty dead if that were the case. It leaves us with a unique tactical challenge set out for us by the designers. I accept the fact that not all people share this theme, though what they do see in a game like BG2 if not an entertaining challenge is beyond me. At the end of the day it comes down to, as you said, "Whatever floats your boat".

[ 01-11-2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Sever ]

Sever - Amen.

The few times I've crossed over the line of what I consider cheating I can't be bothered to carry on. If I'm going to ctrl-Y one opponent, the next is so much more likely. I only use SK for making changes to things like the avatar now and I actually removed the cheat option from the ini file.

To Each His Own.

That said, I tend to either smile or shake my head whenever I read a post that tells of unfair advantages gained through cheating. Sometimes, to the point where one has to ask himself, what is the point then?

I smile, because of pride. Pride in that I did not need to resort to cheating to accomplish what that other player did. Note that I am not talking about cheating to resolve bugs, but cheating such as CTRL+Y.

I shake my head because sometimes... when I go to forums where game mods are being discussed, it is not uncommon to come across posts that praise how nice the Improved Mods were, then in the next sentence, freely admit that they cheated to conquer the Mod.

What is the point of installing the Mod then? Where is the challenge? The game was never designed to be a pushover. The satisfaction gained from accomplishing the seemingly impossible with whatever tools and wits you can gather at that moment is what it is all about, apart from the immersion of the game world that interacts with you.

Truth be told, I have no respect for the gamer that resorted to cheating to defeat his enemies, as I personally believe that they are the worst forms of cheating.

Cheated to bypass a bug? No problem I guess, though personally I will just grit my teeth and reload an earlier save. Cheated to remove the XP Cap? Okay I guess... but know that any class/kit can solo the game without the need to remove the XP Cap, as me and several veterans will attest. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Okay, I think I ranted enough already.

Whilst I agree largely with Dundee I do need to make a couple of points (because I'm that sort of person, and I can [img]smile.gif[/img] )

First off - the game is about enjoying yourself. If something is denying enjoyment and a "cheat" can prevent that, then aside from removal of a challenge, where's the harm?

Secondly - the XP cap, particularly on solo, does infringe on MY enjoyment of the game. Part of the pleasure of gaming (whether PnP or CRPG) is the advancement of characters. Particularly in BG2/TOB where the HLAs add something extra to the game. When you hit a point where you cannot get any better it does lose something. There are reasons behind this issue - the game is balanced for party play and soloing destroys that, but the overall power level is too high and XP rewards are too great in general. I also find that, particularly using rogues, that mid to high-levels are too easy to gain (levels 15 through to 39 are very easy to gain as the powerlevel of quests increases) leaving a massive amount of XP points to get to the final level. Using a level 50 patch alleviates some of these problems, without decreasing the challenge (there's not really much difference between a level 40 and 50 character)

I agree with Malthaussen, good points mate.
I don't really see what all the fuss is about with regard to cheating, and I definitely don't need any definitions of it. ("removing the XP-cap? That's cheating!!" "Is not!" "Using Ctrl+Y is cheating, but giving yourself different stats in SK is not" Helllooooo, what are you really getting worked up over?)

Frankly, I don't give a damn how people play the game, as long as they enjoy themselves. And I would not lose respect for someone getting tired of fighting a near-invincible enemy and cheating in order to move the game along. LMAO! I don't base respect for people on how they play a silly game, there's a lot more that comes into it. ;)
What do I have to say about how others want to play the game? As long as you have fun while doing it, you have my blessing ;)

That said, I usually don't cheat myself, certainly not on the first time through the game, but like Cerek I have sometimes created Identify scrolls to nudge the game along and spare me the tedious "Change all Magic Missiles into Identifies, rest, Identify items, change Identifies into Magic Missiles, rest" routine. I really don't see how it should matter to anyone how others choose to enjoy their games, unless multiplaying comes into the picture. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-13-2003, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

The examples just stated are those where the game system/engine get in the way of enjoyment of the game. I always thought that the spell memorisation idea was the weakest part of D&D anyway. I still wouldn't bother adding scrolls in that way though. It's more effort than it's worth IMO. YMMV.