<front color="yellow">

Well what???

</font>

Same as everyone else, AC bonus and missile THACO bonus at very high DEX levels.

Ironic that high DEX doesn't really benefit the Archer eh? He can't wear heavy armor so the AC bonus is sort of useless (average AC is really just about as crappy as bad AC when it really matters), and if there's a thing in the world that a high level Archer can't hit after lvl 15 or so, then a +3 extra THACO isn't going to change that [img]smile.gif[/img]

I have one bone in my craw about the whole BG series.

Dex only adds to THAC0 for missle weapons, while str adds to damage and THAC0. This was somewhat balanced with composite bows... They were meant to add the str bonus to missle weapons. Imagine how wicked the archer kit would be with 21 str or so, the damage added from using a composite long bow would be sick... But the darn game is broken in this aspect.

<font color=deepskyblue>I have to disagree with you <font color=gold>Butterfingers</font>.

Strength improves damage and ThAC0 because swinging a hand-held weapon is a function of eye-hand coordination (Dex) and power (Strength).

Dex only improves ThAC0 of missile weapons because that pertains to the eye-hand coordination aspect again. The better Dex you have, the better your aim is. HOWEVER, your physical strength is basically irrelevant when it comes to shooting a bow. The tension in the bow determines the speed and impact of the arrow. Even if you are significantly stronger than someone else in real life, you aren't going to be able to increase the velocity of the arrow by any significant amount. Therefore, you would both do the same relative damage with the same bow.

However, if you both hit somebody with the same sword, you will do MUCH more damage than the other person.

As you said, composite bows offset this somewhat, but shooting a bow is as much a function of technique as it is strength.

The bottom line is that arrows and quarrels require the use of a mechanical device...and there is a limit on the maximum force these "devices" can deliver.

A good friend of mine from my PnP days explained that "modifying" a bow to allow Strength damage was more than just a function of "magical enhancement". It also required physically altering the bow itself...making it thicker and longer so it would have greater resistance. Then he said "So basically, to have a bow that granted the bonus for a Strength of 25, you would have to carry a telephone pole around with a metal cable for the bowstring". :eek:

Keep in mind that there are plenty of bows and crossbows in BGII which DO grant significant bonuses to your attack and damage rolls.</font>

And if that's not enough, Throwing Axes, Throwing Daggers and Slings with magical bullets add the Stregnth bonus, too.

And if that's not enough, Throwing Axes, Throwing Daggers and Slings with magical bullets add the Stregnth bonus, too.</font>[/QUOTE]<font color="deepskyblue">EXACTLY!!! Because those are hand-thrown - ergo, the damage they do IS a function of the character's strength.</font>

<font color="deepskyblue">EXACTLY!!! Because those are hand-thrown - ergo, the damage they do IS a function of the character's strength.</font></font>[/QUOTE]Yep.

On that note - in your opinion, should darts add strength bonus?
They are hand thrown, but they are almost wightless.
One doesn't need to be a physics genius to see that the damage that a thrown object deal is a function of both his wight and the strength of the thrower.

Strength is very important with archery. The more resistance the bow has, the more damage the arrow does. Strength also determines aim when practicing archery. When you pull the string back, you must hold your shot for just a brief second to get a good clean shot. If you quiver, shake, or otherwise move in any way from strain, you can loose a shot. I have used bows with over 100 pounds of resistance. Those sorts of bows can drive an arrow straight through a 2x4 plank, or, right through the body of a deer. So, speaking from experience, the more strength you have, potentially, the more damage you can do with a bow.

This is why a crossbow was the great equilizer. A wench driven crossbow with over 200 or even 300 pounds of pull could easily be used by somebody with the strength of a small child, allowing most anybody to use one. (Hand pulled is another story... you need a strong foot and an even stronger back)

Butterfingers is correct. A stronger character would use a bow with significantly higher draw weight at full pull, making the arrow travel faster and hit harder.

Sadly, for simplicity reasons, a bow in BG is just a bow. Were it closer to real life, there would be a large variety of bows, useable by different strengths, that added a certain amount of strength damage.

<font color=deepskyblue><font color=gold>Butterfingers</font> - I agree that a bow with a 100lb resistance takes a lot of strength to use, but the damage done by the arrow is STILL a function of the bow's resistance, NOT the user's strength.

Do you think that an Olympic weightlifter could do more damage with that same 100lb-resistance bow than you?? After all, he is much stronger than you (an assumption on my part - apologies in advance if I'm wrong ;) ), so - according to your theory - he should be able to do even more damage with a single arrow since he can hold the string longer or pull it back farther.

Or do you feel that your experience with the bow would make you fairly equal with him, despite his greater strength?

<font color=cyan>Alson</font> - Should a character apply their Strength bonus to darts? Whew...good question. When most of us think of darts, we think of the parlor or tavern game. As anybody who has thrown them knows, you actually LOSE accuracy when you throw harder.

However, if you look at the picture of darts in BGI & II, the entire thing appears to be made of metal, and would be quite a bit heavier than the modern version. My guess is that these darts probably have about 2/3 the weight of a dagger...that should be heavy enough to allow at least a partial Strength bonus IMHO.

Of course, it is usually a moot point. Darts are the favored weapons of mages - who typically do not qualify for a Strength bonus anyway. And fighters rarely choose darts when they do more damage with slings, axes, hammers, and daggers.</font>

If you ask if strenght-bonusses should apply to darts because of its weight, you also have to ask yourself what function the weight of the dart has.

Scientists recently wondered what was most effective in a crash, f.e. an airplane crashing into the dome of a nucleair power plant.

Two obvious factors : Mass and Velocity ( kinetic energy )

Looking at the second law of newton, you see:
F.dt=m.dv ( force times the elapsed time you apply the force is equal to the product of the mass of the object you use the force on times its difference in speed) So delta t , delta v are both the relative time and speed.

You see here that the force you apply affects both the object mass and velocity the same way.
So if you apply great force on an object with a small mass, it'll go really fast.
f.e. an object of a 100 grams ( 0,1 kg ) , using a force of 1000N for 30 secs.
1000N . 30 s = 0,1 . 300 000
F . dT = m . dv

In this case, its speed would be 300 000 meters per second.

Secondly .. kinetic energy is the usefull energy, the energy that's gonna destroy the thing you object hits.
An object with a lot of kinetic energy ( movement energy ) has a lot of potential hurt in itself.

Kinetic energy = 1/2 m . v²

You see here, that the mass of an object doesnt really matter for the amount of Kinetic energy ... Velocity has a far greater impact on the kinetic energy.
Doubling the velocity gives you a far greater increase in kinetic energy, than doubling the mass.

So what we have is :

-If you apply force for a period of time on an object with a small mass,it will gain a great velocity.
-Velocity has a great impact on the kinetic energy of an object
-the more kinetic energy an object has, the more potentially destructive it gets

I am doing this a la minute, so im not 100% sure im right on this, but I believe so ...
Anywayz, the fact that darts have a small mass, doesnt mean that strenght shouldnt add a bonus, even better .. it pays off to use great force on objects with a small mass.

This strokes with the findings of the scientists, who said that a small object with great velocity would be more effective in destroying a nucleair powerdome, than a large object with relative slower speed.
Velocity is more destructive than mass, but they are interconnected, influence eachother.

[ 01-01-2003, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: daan ]

You have obviously never seen a war dart.

I did a long stint with the SCA. (Society for Creative Anachronisms - think about a group that plays D&D with real life weapons and armor)

A war dart is about a foot long or so, has a wicked barbed tip, and, a short feathered wooden shaft. The tip is designed to break off. They are somewhat heavy, I have used some that weigh upwards of a half a pound. When thrown properly, with a lot of force put behind them, they are utterly painful and lethal. Don't believe me? Go back in time and ask the Romans. They faced entire hoards of Celts armed with darts and slings. A well made and well thrown dart could punture almost any wooden shield, leaving about 3 to 4 inches of jagged metal jutting through. Using the shield, you would rip your self to pieces if that sharp pointy spike rubbed you the wrong way. Worse, a well aimed dart could not only pierce your shield, but, dig deep into the arm holding the shield. Even during later times, the dark ages, a dart thrower was feared. Moors used highly poisonous darts, war darts, and, all it took was a slight nick and you were going to have a real bad day, mind you though, a short one. At close range, a strong man could fling a dart and could pierce even thick heavy plated field mails.

You have to be fairly strong to fling a war dart weighing a half a pound or so with any sort of accuracy, meaning, a war dart really is not an ideal weapon for a mage so to speak. Heck, the entire AD&D weapon system is pretty screwed if you study these sorts of things.

As for the question posed to me about bows. Archery is about 50% skill, 50% strength. A well skilled archer could do the job with a smaller lighter bow, however, a moderately skilled brute could also do the job with a massive war bow. Take the Mongols... They shot from horseback, meaning most of their shots missed. However, they used long war bows that had a resistance of 120 to 150 pounds or even more in some cases. They did not hit as often as they would have liked I am sure, but, when they did, said arrow was probably instantly lethal. Mongols were feared not because they were excelent marksmen, but, because they were fiercely strong and frightfully mobile. And yes, the stronger you are the more damage you can do. The more you pull on a bow, the more resistance you encounter. Stronger people can pull back further. The further you pull back, the more energy you can build. All that stored up energy gets released when you let go. Yeah, some folks might be strong enough to pull a 100 pound bow, but, a real strong person can pull the bow all the way to it's full potential, causing a massive increase of damage in the process. Pulling that string back even an inch or so can cause unbelieveable differences in how much damage a shot can do.

No, but an extraordinarily strong man wouldn't use a 100lb bow - he would find and use a 200lb bow (like middle english longbowmen). *This* would give him extra damage [img]smile.gif[/img]

The velocity versus mass question fits well with the energy blades spell - those things are little, but you throw them incredibly fast LOL.

As for bows, I would have to go down on the side against massive strength bonuses for damage - the Olympic weightlifter example is excellent, the bow's damage is limited by the qualities of the bow.

And, in all cases, no matter the strength, there is a practical upper limit to the velocity at which an object can be thrown - consider major league baseball pitchers - no matter how strong they are, no one is every going to throw the ball 130 mph without some sort of mechanical assistance.

But at the same time, pitchers with a wide variety of strengths can throw a mean fastball.

Well yeah, but that's inconsequent butterfingers ...

If the amount of speed i could give any object was the same, offcourse the heavier object is gonna do more damage.
I'd rather have a 1 kg rock hit me than a 100kg rock.

But a set amount of force is something else ... in that case the same amount of force cant give a 10 times heavier object the same speed.

But i definetly believe you, when you say a wardart hurts more.
I guess its basically because the velocity difference between a normal dart and a wardart isnt big enough to make it count. The right balance is important.

You could try and throw a feather at someone with great force ... according to the formulas it should be going pretty darn fast then .. but it wont, since its too light. The wind and air give too much resistance.

[ 01-01-2003, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: daan ]

Hmmm ever heard of a hidden needle attack?

In ancient China, there are stories of assassins that could throw small steel needles with enough force to kill a man. The art was lost for a long time.

Now, it is revived again. No matter how small, light, whatever, there is always a way to kill somebody with it [img]smile.gif[/img]

[img]tongue.gif[/img] Small steel needles are very sleek, thus they cut through the air like a ... needle .... no resistance

And i definetly agree with you, small, light objects can be very deadly :D

It only takes a relatively small meteor, but one with great speed .. to make a hell of a crater [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Short bow -> Long Bow -> Composite Longbow
3 bow types require str 3, 6, 18
composite longbow, even though it requires massive strength, only does +1 damage and same THAC0 bonus as the long bow. I agree, there should be more variety... 6 -> 18 is a rather large jump for a simple +1 dam.
Maybe str requirement for a CLB should be reduced to say, 15 ?

Well this is why str bonus is meant to be added to composite long bows, simulating the effect of being able to pull the bow back farther then most other characters could, bringing me back to my original point.

Also, I am guessing that most folks here have never practiced archery, excepting perhaps those plastic fantastic bows they use for high school PE. Your own physical grace means very little when using a bow. I have known folks who are stupidly clumbsy, trip over their own feet sort of folks, who are lethal crack shots with a bow.

But I bet thier not shooting 3-4 times in six seconds with someone shooting back.

Actually, I have extensively practised archery, and it kinda depends on what type of archery you're doing. If you are doing static target archery, then all you need is the ability to assume a position and hold it rock-steady for a period of time, and to be able to do this repeatedly.

However, if you're hunting (chasing a moving target), or doing rapid-fire, then grace and dexterity comes into the fray very very heavily. Fluid, accurate motions lead to higher success rates [img]smile.gif[/img]