ToB Items Spoilers
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<font color="#999999">There was an atmosphere of foreboding in the inn, as two figures sat at a table facing each other and talking in hushed tones.

"Oh fair Foebane, surely you cannot be serious about this? What can this twig of a pretender hope to offer you?"

"Crom Faeyr... you know I will not promise my hand in marriage until I am certain that my partner is the best there is on offer. You have been so faithful to me all these years, but I have received word that Equaliser can make a stronger union."

"BAH! I will crush him with my bare hands!"

"I have no doubt that you can, but... this is not about how powerful you are compared to him, but how powerful you and I are compared to me and him. Unions bring a whole new different perspective. Prepare yourself, Crom Faeyr. For the hour draws near and we shall all see who shall emerge victorious."

"I have been ready for a long time already... I shall relish pounding this... Equaliser, into the ground."</font>

*Fast forward several days at a fairground*

"Ladiessss and gentle knights. I present to you a clash of misfit proportions! As per the rules, each contestant gets to pair up with a clone of Lady Foebane. The target is of chaotic evil, non-planar origins, everybody's base STR is 22, everybody is assumed to have grandmastered in his or her weapons of choice, everybody has the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation, everybody has been altered to be level 13+ and the target has been enchanted so that they will always hit unless they fumble of course, heh, heh... ...

They have 20 rounds to do their best. The pair that deals the most damage is the winner! On your marks... get set... GO!"

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<font color="lime">Miscellanous Information:
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Attacks per Round,

Base: 1
Warrior Bonuses: 2
GoES: 5/2
5*: 3
Dualwield: 4

Belm: 5

STR Damage Bonuses,

STR 22: +10 damage
STR 25: +14 damage</font>

<font color="white">Foebane +5 & Belm +2:
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100 Attacks in 20 Rounds. 80 will be Foebane, 20 will be Belm. Out of 80 potential hits, Foebane will miss 4 times and score 4 critical hits. Belm will miss once and score one critical hit.

Foebane's Average Damage On A Normal Hit: 2d4 +5, +10, +3, +2, +1d4 = 27.5
Foebane's Average Damage On A Critical Hit: ( ( 27.5 - 2.5 ) * 2 ) + 2.5 = 52.5
20 Rounds Later: ( 27.5 * 72 ) + ( 52.5 * 4 ) = 2190

Belm's Average Damage On A Normal Hit: 1d8 +2, +10, +3, +2 = 21.5
Belm's Average Damage On A Critical Hit: 21.5 * 2 = 43
20 Rounds Later: ( 21.5 * 18 ) + 43 = 430

Grand Total: 2620
Average Damage per Round: 2620 / 20 = <font color="cyan">131</font>

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<font color="white">Foebane +5 & Equaliser +3:
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80 Attacks in 20 Rounds. 60 will be Foebane, 20 will be the Equaliser. Out of 60 potential hits, Foebane will miss 3 times and score 3 critical hits. Equaliser will miss once and score one critical hit.

Foebane's Average Damage On A Normal Hit: 2d4 +5, +10, +3, +2, +6, +1d4 = 33.5
Foebane's Average Damage On A Critical Hit: ( ( 33.5 - 2.5 ) * 2 ) + 2.5 = 64.5
20 Rounds Later: ( 33.5 * 54 ) + ( 64.5 * 3 ) = 2002.5

Equaliser's Average Damage On A Normal Hit: 1d8 +6, +10, +3, +2 = 25.5
Equaliser's Average Damage On A Critical Hit: 25.5 * 2 = 51
20 Rounds Later: ( 25.5 * 18 ) + 51 = 510

Grand Total: 2512.5
Average Damage per Round: 2512.5 / 20 = <font color="cyan">125.625</font>

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<font color="white">Foebane +5 & Crom Faeyr +5:
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80 Attacks in 20 Rounds. 60 will be Foebane, 20 will be Crom Faeyr. Out of 60 potential hits, Foebane will miss 3 times and score 3 critical hits. Crom Faeyr will miss once and score one critical hit.

Foebane's Average Damage On A Normal Hit: 2d4 +5, +14, +3, +2, +1d4 = 31.5
Foebane's Average Damage On A Critical Hit: ( ( 31.5 - 2.5 ) * 2 ) + 2.5 = 60.5
20 Rounds Later: ( 31.5 * 54 ) + ( 60.5 * 3 ) = 1882.5

Crom Faeyr's Average Damage On A Normal Hit: 2d4 +3, +14, +3, +2, +5 = 32
Crom Faeyr's Average Damage On A Critical Hit: ( ( 32 - 5 ) * 2 ) + 5 = 59
20 Rounds Later: ( 32 * 18 ) + 59 = 635

Grand Total: 2517.5
Average Damage per Round: 2517.5 / 20 = <font color="cyan">125.875</font>

<font color="#999999">It was a close fight, but Crom Faeyr prevailed. Equaliser was shamed to no end, despite all the advantages that was given to him. Alas... it was a bittersweet ending, for in the end, both were losers. Fair Lady Foebane rode off with Belm, who was not as enchanting as the rest, but a fast worker in more ways than one.

THE END?</font>

[ 11-29-2002, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

First, Dundee, thank you for doing the tests.
I appreciate the work. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now, to the comments. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Minor ToB Item Spoilers
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More points to the Eqalizer, then. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I'm surprised i did not noticed that in my testing...

Now, is it? Read on. ;)

True.
But! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Don't forget this, Dundee - ~95% of the monsters are Evil.
And the majority of the Evil monsters are Chaotic or Lawful.
When fighting Chaotic/Lawful Evil opponents, the Equalizer is a better off hand weapon than Crom or Belm. You just proved it.
The Equalizer is just not as bad as we thought. [img]smile.gif[/img]

No problem.
I used Kensais because of their Kai ability, and I managed to duplicate the results over and over again, much to my amazement.
/me ponders

I suppose I should give it a shot. I was thinking though, this also gives a lot of implications to backstabbing Assassin->Fighters. An additional 84 damage is not to be sniffed at, especially on a critical( 168 damage).

What is the most damaging backstabbable one-handed weapon in terms of physical damage? I think Jim and I have to revisit on what is the single most damaging strike possible in the game.

Using Kensais is a good idea.
I will remember this the next time i test something like this.
I trust that you did not forget to subtract their bonuses, right?

Do i hear a tone of agreement in your voice, Mr. Slaytern? [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D

Pure physical damage?
I think it's a tie between Hindo's Doom +4 (1D10 +4) and Angurvadal +5 (1D8 +5) - both have a 9.5 average, but Angurvadal +5 will also cause fire damage that, unfortunately, will not be multiplied.
So i think he have a winner. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-24-2002, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

Alson, ;) I was only testing out the Equaliser's bonuses. The Kensai's bonuses remain constant, so I simply swap the Equaliser in the off-hand and put a normal longsword( which also happens to be the Equaliser's minimum base damage as verified during the tests) there.

With Equaliser - Without Equaliser = Equaliser's Bonuses
Yes. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I guess I can calculate it tomorrow, while I wait for the scripts to compile. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

My character uses a sword and shield style of fighting. So, would the Equaliser be any good in just one hand?

Nice work boys. I've not had time to scrutinise every line of this thread, I'll try and take a closer look at it tomorrow. The point I just quickly want to make is this:

Dundee, you play on insane difficulty. When you attack a party member, the damage is also doubled. Is it possible that when you deduced the equilisers bonus damage values, you left it on insane? That would explain why these damage values are exactly double what they should be.....?

Great Scots! Jim does it again. ;)

Now I understand why my criticals were 3 digits... ...

Sorry Alson, but... this means the Equaliser is once again... sub-par. Since it needs a +8 bonus to match the other combinations, and +6 is its' maximum... ...

Damn you Jim! Damn you! [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But i will not give up!
I will NOT submit!! [img]graemlins/evillaughter1.gif[/img]
MWAHAHAHAHA!!! [img]graemlins/evillaughter2.gif[/img]

Hear me, then:

Hmmm? 11 physical damage? I think you added another +3 bonus to Crom.
Crom Faeyr's physical damage is 2D4+3 - which is ((5+11)/2), not ((5+11)/2)+3. ;)
Ergo, Crom's average physical damage is 8, not 11.

But that's not fair.
Foebane +5 is 2D4+5, which is ((7+13)/2) = 10. The +6 is only legitimate versus several kinds of monsters - they are hardly the majority. ;)
Of course, you can say that about the Equalizer's bonuses, too - but they cover a much larger range of monsters.

Giving that +6 bonus to Foebane gives an immense advantage to the Belm, obviously.

The jury will want to reconsider, due to recent finding. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

What I find amusing is that halfway during our debates, Jim will enter and announce new facts that render both of us wrong. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
My bad. I have corrected the calculations and guess what? It still won. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
How is it not fair? Foebane remained constant throughout all three combinations. If you ask me to remove the +6 damage from all three, the average damage will still balance out, and the Equaliser will be made to look even worse. :eek:
The jury will now be horrified. ;) Cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

What I find amusing is that halfway during our debates, Jim will enter and announce new facts that render both of us wrong. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, i thought about it, too.

Although being the reviewer of a book is always easier than being its writer... ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

It's not fair because it gives Belm a great advantage.
The more damage Foebane does, the more shining Belm is - that's why FoA+5 and Belm is such a good combo. ;)

But there are more evidents, your honor!
Try it out without Foebane's +6 bonus, and with GWW.

I would add 23 STR here, but that would be too mean... Right? ;)

Sorry guys :D Didn't want to spoil the party ;)

Your comment about revisiting the backstab Dundee, I think using the Equiliser in the off hand, whilst planting a critical septuple grandmastery backstab whilst wearing the GoES/WE using Hindo's Doom +4 will rival that of the SoTR+6!

Assuming 25 STR
Grandmastery with Katanas (patched)
GoES/WE
Hindos Doom +4
Equiliser (offhand)
lawful good/evil or chaotic good/evil opponent
Unarmed/missile equipped opponent....

((((1D10+4)+5+2+6+4)*7)+14)*2=462 damage! Hmmm, can't remember if that beats the staff, will have to dig that post out and have a look....

[EDIT]WE HAVE A TIE! The Fighter->Assassin with the SoTR+6 also hits for 462 damage. I'll ponder what other cool things can be done with this weapon....well done to Alson BTW for realising the dual wielding damage with this weapon (still not got round to replying to your thread, although I intend to someday!), although I've not had time to test this yet. [/EDIT]

[ 11-26-2002, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Jim ]

Okay, I removed the +6 damage bonus and guess what? The Equaliser still lost. I said it once, and I will say it again. The crippling of the off-hand is what works against the Equaliser. So unless you plan to put a Dagger +1 in the main-hand, it is wiser to put a better weapon in the off-hand.
GWW? The results will be the same. Foebane + Crom Faeyr have the exact same amount of attacks as Foebane + Equaliser. The only loser will be Foebane + Belm, since that is the only combination that benefits from additional attacks.

Increasing the STR will do nothing, as that benefits both the off-hand and the main-hand.

I'm pretty sure that the results won't be the same.
Maybe the Main Hand/Off Hand attacks ratio will be the same, but the overall, Main Hand will do more damage - thus emphasizing E's biggest (and only) advantage.
Well, not only, but we're talking damage here. [img]smile.gif[/img]

That's not true.
Since mathematics is your language, you should know that 23 STR * (Foebane and Equalizer) > 22 STR * (Foebane and Equalizer)... Right? ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]
On the other hand, the Foebane + Crom combo will not earn nothing from increasing the STR to 23...

[ 11-27-2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Alson ]

The ratio between main-hand and off-hand is 2:1

3 ApR? 2 MH, 1 OH ->
6 ApR? 4 MH, 2 OH

See where I am going with this? The ratio is the same.
Ah, I see what you mean now. I will see what will happen then.

[ 11-28-2002, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Tralalalala, the Foebane + Equaliser pair still lost to the Foebane + Crom Faeyr all the way up till STR 24.

It only beats them at STR 25, but that is to be expected, since the STR 25 is what gives the Crom Faeyr the edge. If you want to base on this argument that the Equaliser is a better off-hand weapon, I will want to declare a mistrial and use the Purifier in the off-hand. ;)

Besides... you have to REALLY cheese to get a natural stat of STR 25.

Ah... invoking Alson's Lore of the Equaliser, I deduced that the Purifier might work in the same way, and guess what? It does.

Insert evil laughter.

I just added a potential +5 damage to the Purifier + DoE combo.

General Alson stared at the battlefield. He was running out of ideas.
His platoon was slaughtered by Dundee's battalion.
For a second, he saw a glimpse of hope - but Jim's artillery took care of that.
Dundee's soldiers are well trained and well equipped - while his privates can barely hold a Musket.
Thoughts running through his head, plans rose and quickly dismissed, Alson was about to raise the white flag.
But then it came to him.
Generals' school, Lesson 1, Rule 1: Hit him where it hurts. Aim to the head.
Alson's eyed scanned the battlefield, looking for the key. It was a matter of seconds before he saw it. Dundee's tactic was based upon one major consensus - the ApR ration of the Main Hand/Off Hand was 2:1.
How could i've been so blind?!, he thought.
Alson quickly reloaded his AK-47 ( [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), aimed to the Dundee's Lieutenant who was in charge of the ApR handling, and squeezed the trigger.
Head Shot. :D

The rest, as they say, is history... [img]smile.gif[/img]

After this little (not boring, hopefully [img]smile.gif[/img] ) introduction is over, allow to go to the point.
Your whole calculations are based upon the assumption that the ApR ration of the Main Hand/Off Hand is 2/1. Unfortunately (or should i say, luckily? [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), that is not the case.
The Off Hand will always be the last strike of the round.
If you have 2 ApR, the Main Hand will strike once and the Off Hand will strike once.
If you have 3 ApR, the Main Hand will strike twice and the Off Hand will strike once.
If you have 4 ApR, the Main Hand will strike three times and the Off Hand will strike once.
If you have 5 ApR, the Main Hand will strike four times and the Off Hand will strike once.

If you are (Improved) Hasted, the sequence will be the same, but doubled.
For example, if you had four attacks normally, a round will look like this:
1st strike: Main Hand
2nd strike: Main Hand
3rd strike: Main Hand
4th strike: Off Hand

with Improved Haste, it'll look like this:
1st strike: Main Hand
2nd strike: Main Hand
3rd strike: Main Hand
4th strike: Off Hand
5th strike: Main Hand
6th strike: Main Hand
7th strike: Main Hand
8th strike: Off Hand

A bit of trivia - Greater Whirlwind sets your ApR to 5, and then Improved Haste you for 1 round.

I've tested this matter through and through - but you can test if you want to see it for yourself. I even took a few screenshots - just tell me if you want to see them.
This should be enough for the Equalizer to beat Crom, i'm quite sure. ;)

Read and weep Equaliser bashers! ;) [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Thus my verdict - with a good ApR rate, the Equalizer is a good Off Hand weapon - in league with Crom, Belm, DoE, etc...

Cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-29-2002, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Alson ]

Thanks. [img]smile.gif[/img]

How about using Angurvadal +5 instead of Hindo's Doom +4? Same average damage, but, wierd as it may sound, the +1D4 Fire damage will give it the cutting edge! [img]smile.gif[/img]
What do you think?

Does it work that way? That will be odd. I will have to test it out when I get back home.

As for your alternative to the Hindo's Doom, not so good.

Angurvadal +5 is 1d8 +5, +1d4 fire damage

Hindo's Doom is 1d10 +4

Now... Angurvadal +5 has 13 physical damage, compared to Hindo's Doom's 14. An Assassin has a backstab multiplier of x7, so the Hindo's Doom gets 7 damage for every single physical damage point it has. This is 3 more than the fire damage by Angurvadal +5. Even a normal Thief gets one more point of damage because a Thief's backstab multiplier is x5.

This is why we need the most physically damaging thief weapon for a backstab.

Close fight, but Crom Faeyr still defeated the Equaliser.

ADD] Oh yeah, I forgot to mention it. You are right Alson, with regards to the way off-hand hits work. The 2:1 ratio is only for the Blades' MMM Exploit.

[ 11-29-2002, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Hmmmm... Fine. :D
This must be one of our longest discussions!

Crom Faeyr offers +0.25 damage per round and Electrical damage, while Equalizer offers Mental Shield. I say - lets call it a tie. [img]smile.gif[/img]

On the other hand, if the Strength was 23 or the Fighter was under the influence of a Haste effect... ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Lovely writeup, BTW. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-29-2002, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: Alson ]

Oh... You wanted maximum physical damage?
I thought you meant average physical damage, and then (6+13)/2 = (5+14)/2.
But if maximum is what you're after, than Hindo's Doom is indeed better. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks.

I think our longest discussion was the one where we debated how to achieve the maximum average damage per round.

Crom Faeyr will lose if the STR is 23+, but then... if you had a STR of 23+, you would want to use some other weapon already, like the Purifier +5. Crom Faeyr is for characters that do not want to wear STR Girdles.

What happens if the character is Hasted( not Improved Haste, or the Boots of Speed)? Do his off-hand attacks double?

[ 11-29-2002, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

That's a mere specualtion, but...
I think that if you have 4 attacks, then someone hastes you, the game will act like you have 5 attacks - 4 Main Hand, 1 Off Hand.
If you have 5 attack, however, and someone hastes you, the game will act like you have 3 attack and you are Improved Hasted - 2 Main Hand, 1 Off Hand, 2 Main Hand, 1 Off Hand.

I'm going to the beach now - i'll test it when i'll come back.

So tie it is?

Remember. Jim and I want to find out the most damaging single strike possible in the game, and to that end, that means using backstab. Backstab works best with physical damage. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Tie I suppose, at STR 22, [img]smile.gif[/img] taking the equipped abilities into consideration. The Equaliser will be better against Illithids for example, while Crom Faeyr will terrorise Golems.

How Haste affects off-hand hits will be quite decisive.

In any case, have fun at the beach.

Thanks. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I tried to run some tests, but i got some VERY wierd results...
Would you mind?

My head hurts ;)

Seriously, though - it's interesting stuff [img]smile.gif[/img]

Interesting, interesting... I wonder, however, how would a base STR of 22 be acquired? By base STR, do you mean with or without items? Because at the moment I'm assuming it's from one the belts of giant strength, since I can't remember enough stat boosts in the game to get to 22 in a stat (I might be wrong, of course)... and if it is indeed the Belt, then with Crom Fayer the Belt can be given to another character, thus increasing their damage as well. Of course, if this is based on the assumption of a lone character... that's not very important anymore.

22 Strength is conferred by the Belt of Fire Giant Strength in ToB, or indeed Angurvadal (upgraded) but that's irrelevant when talking about two weapon combinations. There is actually 2 ways to legitimately get 22 ST:
Spoilers (small ToB)
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1) Any character save halfling (18 ST): start in BG1, use Tome of Strength, get the +2 St bonus from being evil, use MoLTM.
2) Start as half-orc (19 ST): start in BG2, get +2 St from being evil, use MoLTM.

Probably more ways too, but that's what I can think of now. [img]smile.gif[/img]

It's actually possible to get a natural strength of 24:

19 STR starting (half-orc or BG1 import)
+3 STR from the nine hells (+1 when you give in to the taint when battling wraith Sarevok - assuming warrior, +2 STR from the tear of bhaal for this challenge)
+1 STR from TMoLTM
+1 STR from the Deck of Many Things (assuming warrior)

Not to contradict anyone, but right now I'm playing a character who started BG1 with 16 STR (when he could have had 18), and now has a natural STR of 23. Meaning, of course, that if I'd given him those other 2 points at Character Creation, he'd have a natural *25* STR right now.

Note: I did cheat, exactly this much: He started BG1 as a Human Fighter, and I used Gatekeeper to change him into a Half-Orc Barbarian. I applied the following changes:
+1 to STR
+1 to CON
-1 to INT
-2 to CHA
+2 hitpoints at every Level Up (in BG1)
and I never let him wear any type of Plate or put more than 2 points into a weapon. So, yes, it's technically cheating, but perfectly fair cheating.

Six? Did you use the stat bosting books in BGI? In particular, did you raise the strength of your character?

If so, then you still can not get 25 strength w/out cheating, becasue its not posible to get both the book and the half-orc stat boost at the same time w/out tinkering with the game files.

[ 12-01-2002, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Seraph ]

A Brief History of Grint:

* Rolled in BG1 as a Human Fighter. Got a natural roll with 16 STR, 17 DEX, and 18 CON. Kept it. Strength: 16 (could have been 18).
* Used Gatekeeper to (fairly) turn him into a Half-Orc Barbarian. Strength: 17 (could have been 19).
* Gave him the Manual of Gainful Exercise. Strength: 18 (could have been 20).
* Imported to BG2.
* Paid a friendly visit to the Machine of Lum the Mad. Strength: 19 (could have been 21).
* Lucked out with the Deck of Many Things. Strength: 20 (could have been 22).
* Got a +3 STR bonus in Hell, when I was only expecting +2. Strength: 23 (could have been 25).

And there ye have it. (He also has a natural 23 CON, hee hee!)

Well, you've managed to prove that if you edit save game files that you can get higher then normal strength, good for you.

There is no way without cheating to get both of those bonuses at the same time, meaning it is not something that should be brought up in a discussion debateing the usefulness of weapons.

[ 12-01-2002, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: Seraph ]

<font color="lightblue">He applied the exact same bonuses AND penalties as a HalfOrc would get in BG2.
He applied the penalties of the Babarian class.

Therefore, although it is cheating, it is *justified* cheating; and therefore perfectly legitimate. </font>

But he hasn't [img]smile.gif[/img]

In BG2, Half Orcs recieve -2 INT and no penalty to charisma, but get +1 STR and +1 CON. He has applied -1 INT, -2 CHA. Little difference I know, but they're not exact!

What's that got to do with the price of bananas in London on Tuesday morning? The only thing we're worried about here is STR. INT and CHA have absolutely no place in this discussion. Having said that however...

Collier's Dictionary, 1986 Ed. Cheat mean to gain an advantage or profit by culpably dishonest means... [snip] the rest goes on about other meanings of the word, and similar words.

While I don't agree completely that this definition is entirely appropriate in this case, it is still true. Cheating, while possibly justified, in this instance, is still cheating.

[ 12-02-2002, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: White Lancer ]

What's that got to do with the price of bananas in London on Tuesday morning? The only thing we're worried about here is STR. INT and CHA have absolutely no place in this discussion. Having said that however...
</font>[/QUOTE]It does have a place in this discussion because we're talking creating a half orc character in BG1 and then importing to BG2. In order to do this, the stats for the BG1 character need modifying to those that correspond to a half-orc from BG2. These stats mods needed some minor corrections and that's where the INT and CHA came in. How do you like them bananas? ;)

I think your bananas have gone bad. ;p The discussion was about how to get the highest base STR score legitimately. You can do this by simply having your character go through BG1 7 times (7 tommes then [img]graemlins/evillaughter1.gif[/img] ).