The thing i love about the Baldur's Gate dragons is that u have to actually work hard to beat them. I mean, it took me about 10 reloads to get Firkraag BADLY INJURED, let alone beat him. In NWN, i don't think they have the right to most powerful creature in the realms....

Any thoughts?

I have to agree with you slicer. In NWN my fighter just walked up to a dragon and started hacking, and it was done with. My advice: Don't try that in BG2. ;)

Yeah, i'd be surprised if Dundee's "Conan" tactic works on any dragon in BG2.

Where can i view this.. Conan Tactic???

Dragons are definately cool, but after a while even they become too easy to kill. If only the engine restrictions weren't so limited as to allow only one dragon on the screen/area.

Fighting multiple dragons would be the ultimate fix for the insane, suicidal godspawn my PC is!

You'll be surprised... ;)

HINT: Buff, man. Buff your heart out. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Apparently, you've never met Improved Abazigal...... ;)

Actually, that would be against the spirit of the Conan Tactic. The Conan Tactic advocates the bare skills of your characters. They charge in... unprepared.

A dream scenerio I always had. 23 Dragons, 11 Red and 11 Blue with 1 Black, playing Soccer!

Red 2 Wing Buffets to Red 5. Red 5 is making a run for the goalpost... OH! Nice interception by Blue 4! And with a long-distance Wing Buffet, he punts the Bhaalspawn to the other side of the field.

Actually, I have smacked the dragons in BG2 as I did smack them in NWN - walked to them and started the beating. When got blown away, got up, ran back to it and continued the beating. And done, over.

As for mods, then I have tried some of them, with some cases I only needed to be higher level then before and then it was the same - walk over, start smacking. GWW if needed, Critical Strike and so on... Haven't tried all the mods there are, I mean, come on, there's other games out there to play too [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="white">~Delete~</font>

<font color="white">DSlaytern] A little tact can go a long way. I considered just straight out deleting the post, but I decided to let it stay. As far as I can tell, nothing has been spoiled in regards to NWN. In the future, remember to phrase your words courteously.</font>

[ 11-21-2002, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

I once heard of a guy that played a 6 sorceror party. The fireworks they used against the dragons was meant to be spectacular. The problem with this party is no healers or thieves to detect and disarm traps but that was his problem, HEHE.

3 spells alone will handle all the traps in the game. Stoneskin, Mirror Image and Spell Immunity.

Healing... is not an issue, as the enemy cannot even hurt you most of the time. It is more likely that Sorcerers sell healing potions, than use them.

Actually, that would be against the spirit of the Conan Tactic. The Conan Tactic advocates the bare skills of your characters. They charge in... unprepared.</font>[/QUOTE]Quoted from your Dragon Slaying page:
12. Conan Tactic: Screw tactics, just go in with sword swinging.

Nothing about being unprepared, here. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But i get your point. Lets call it - The Intelligent Conan Tactic. [img]smile.gif[/img]

And a question about Tactic #10, aka the "Web Tactic" - aren't Dragons immune to Web? Or so i've heard... [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

Conan? Intelligent? That's like saying the Bhaalspawn is not naive. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Jesting aside, that page is a compilation of several tactics people use. I was in doubt about the Web one, but I never got around to testing it.

Well, i just did - Infinity Explorer credibility. [img]smile.gif[/img]

The Web spell causes two effects - Web, and HOLD_CREATURE.
Dragons, unfortunately, wield an undroppable ring called DRAGRING (rings a bell, i assume? ;) ) which confers immunity to both.
You can safely remove it from your list - disinformation is baaaaad... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

It was in need of an update anyway. It was suppose to be more comprehensive, with tactics for individual Dragons, but I never got around to doing it.

OK, then... Just thought i should mention the Web thing anyway. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I think that individual Dragons tactics is too party specific.
The big winners here are the quite obvious "Be immune to its Breath Attack" and "Beware of Wing Buffet".
A listing of each Dragon and his particular Breath damage might be nice for newbies, though. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Heh, the empty templates are in place already, but for some reason, I lost interest in completing it.

Hmmm... Life, perhaps? ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Most probably. ;)

Thought so... [img]smile.gif[/img]

BTW, have you seen my Equalizer analysis? I know you don't like that sword, so i thought you may find it interesting.

Read it already, and while it is interesting, I think it does not redeem the "stinkiness" of the weapon.

Spoilers
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3 Pieces, 6 Chapters, 7,500 Gold Pieces, 1 Elder Orb, 1 Beholder, AN ENTIRE MIND FLAYER CITY, and I get this?

Sorry, but it is just not worth the effort. :/ Especially when you consider the other weapons that you can use.

A matter of opinion, obviously.
The 'apply bonuses for both hands' exploit makes it a wonderful off hand weapon, IMO. Definitely the best Longsword for general purposes.

A +6 THAC0 bonus and a +3 Damage bonus with each strike is not to be underestimated.

Now that i think of it - it should work the same for the Daystar, as well... Hmmm...

Whoop-dee-whoop, +6 THACO, wow... how earth-shattering. ;)

Before Equaliser: Only miss on a Critical Miss
After Equaliser: Huh, wha? What difference?

It might as well be a +20 THACO bonus for all I care. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

+3 Damage? This might seem good, but it is misleading. You forgot to mention the damage lost in the off-hand. There is no point boosting the main-hand if you cripple the off-hand. Heck... I am fairly confident I will get better results using Celestial Fury instead of the Equaliser, and you know my thoughts on the CeFury.

Now, look what you've done, Dundee!
You've caused me to quote myself! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Even if one has ToB, level 13 will be the recommended level to dual.
Now, a level 13 fighter THAC0 (excluding the Kensai) is not superb, to say the least. Most probably, not good enough to hit most of the ToB baddies with each hit.
In that case, a +6 THAC0 bonus would be superb for the character.

Another example - backstabers.
Most of the Assassins don't have a good enough THAC0 to backstab the really tough, backstabable monsters. Well, now they do!

Here is a classic. A Swashbuckler/Mage.
This class is almost a Fighter/Thief->Mage Dual - we all know how good Swashies are. The only thing they lack is a low enough THAC0. Now they have that, too. ;)

Open your mind, Dundee. Accept the gifts offered to you. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

You lost me here. Explain - why is the +3 damage lost?
The bonuses aren't transferred to the main hand - they are just applied to both hands, globally.

If I had a Fighter/Mage, I would use the time-honoured combination of Celestial Fury and Dak'kon's Zerth Blade. You do not hear people complaining about their THACO do you? A pureclassed Warrior will have extremely good THACO. A dual/multiclassed Warrior will still have good THACO.

They will have a base of 8 THACO at level 13. Factor in STR, Grandmastery and equipment, and they will still have such a ridiculously low THACO that they will hit almost all the time save through Critical Misses.
Backstabbing grants a +10 THACO bonus. I assure you, my pureclassed Assassin never missed with her oh so unspectacular Blade of Roses save through Critical Misses. ;)
Eh? Swashbucklers were chosen exactly because their THACO were better( one of the reasons at least)! Dualling at level 15 meant a further +3 to their THACO. They can Specialise too, further improving their THACO.
I would hardly consider the Equaliser as a gift. ;) I consider it a con-job by Cromwell. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I mean... in the grand scheme of things, you actually decrease your damage per round.

PS: I just double-checked, and you got the THACO and damage reversed. These are the true statistics of the Equaliser.

Long Sword: The Equalizer
Such is the age of this sword that its true origin has been lost to time, but markings hint that it was possibly forged in the service of Helm. Also called the "Sword of Neutrality", it seems designed to seek and terminate extremes, to shift the universe closer to harmonious equilibrium. The further the behavior of a target from true balance, the more potent the damage they suffer.

STATISTICS:

Always considered +3 when determining what it can hit.
THACO & Damage:
vs True Neutral: +0 to hit, +0 damage
vs Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Neutral +1 to hit, +2 damage
vs Neutral Good, Neutral Evil: +2 to hit, +4 damage
vs other alignments: +3 to hit, +6 damage
Damage type: slashing
Equipped Abilities:
Immune to Charm and Confusion
Weight: 3
Speed Factor: 3
Proficiency Type: Long sword
Type: 1-handed
Requires: 6 Strength
Not Usable By:
Druid
Cleric
Mage

So while I now see some use when I face Chaotic/Lawful Good/Evil opponents, take heed that not all enemy types fall into these categories. I might do some calculations though.

ADD] Rakshasa are Chaotic Neutral, Golems are True Neutral and Suneer is Neutral Evil. To cite some relevant examples.

ADD] ADD] Some more food for thought. Some Vampires are either Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral as well.

[ 11-21-2002, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Maybe the game rolls different dices for you and me. ;)
In my games, a THAC0 of about -3 (assuming your STR, GM and equipment gave you a +11 bonus) is just not good enough in higher levels.

+5 THAC0 bonus, AFAIK.
Anyway, i missed quite a lot backstabs with my Assassins.
Different dices, again? [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Or maybe it's because your solo Assassin just had all the good equipment for herself? ;)

Exactly - they are the only kind of Thief/Mages that can actually hit something. Still, their THAC0 and Damage aren't spectacular - the E's bonuses are a gift for them.

I hardly considered Nature's Beauty as a gift before i played with it a bit, too. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Even better, then!
Damage bonus is usually superior than THAC0 bonuses.

I'll have to think of new examples, though! :D

And we all know that Rakshasas, Some Vampires and Suneers are the vast majority of monsters in the game, Right? Wrong... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 11-21-2002, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

There is a reason why I specifically mentioned those monsters. Who do you get to fight in Chapter 6-7? ;) Unless you are one of the rare players that put off doing all the subquests until Chapter 6, these ARE going to be the most common monsters you will get to stick your Equaliser in.

We should rename this thread - as many others - "The talks of Alson and Dundee, part X". Looks like one is always trying to convince other of something [img]smile.gif[/img] Relax, who cares about the details. You know, too many details turn the "fun" thing into "statistical" thing and generally, "statistics" suck because it's boring. When I play these games, I know all this THAC0 gibberish and such, but I don't care. I use what weapons I think are "fun" and "cool", I don't care what THAC0 they are since I always get things done, and that's it. I don't care personally about the off-hand damage reduction with this or off-hand damage and THAC0 bonus with that - doesn't matter, the mobs are getting hit, so there, case closed [img]smile.gif[/img]

Relax, take it easy, don't go too "statistical" :D

<font color="lightblue">But you have to admit, their discussions are *very* interesting. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

No, actually, i'm one of those not-so-very-rare players who actaully have ToB. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

It is interesting, to the point, after that I am usually just getting the feeling that Alson wants to argue every statement Dundee makes [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well...
Not every statement... :D [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But i'll take it as a compliment, Whailor. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well, I didn't mean it in any other way [img]smile.gif[/img] Discussion is neat, if people know about what they talk, simply don't make it too long, lest it becomes too winded to follow it in coherent way [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ASIDE]
I try to keep my discussions and in general, my posts, interesting. I for one, know how boring it can be to write endlessly in an impassionate manner. Engineering Technical Reports and all that. *Shudder*
[/ASIDE]

I would counter that this is an SoA Forum, and you will be surprised how many players do not have ToB( especially those unfortunate to have Macs).

That aside, even if you take into account ToB, a lot of the monsters do not fall in the extreme alignments.
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ToB Spoiler
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Yes. Fire Giants, Demons, Drow, etc... do fall into those categories, but what about the Elementals( like Ogremoch. You do not want to use the Equaliser against him ;) ), Golems, Monks( True Neutral, whoops), etc... ...

In specific situations, I suppose the Equaliser can shine, but overall... other weapon combinations will outshine it. To add further insult, the enchantment is only +3. True, so is the Silver Sword, but that is a Vorpal Weapon! Instant-Death beats damage almost anytime. Not to mention that the Silver Sword is literally GIFTED to you.

<font color="#999999">"Here! Take this blade!"

2 Chapters later... ...

"Yo! I hold the hilt and my combat skills suck, but I need that blade to make this awesome weapon. Did I mention my combat skills suck? Yeah they suck big time. I think you can beat me and make the sword yourself."</font>

As I mentioned before, you literally had to go through Hell and high-water just to get the parts for the Equaliser, and the result is frankly disappointing.

Here is a simple question for you. If you had to choose between the Celestial Fury, or the Equaliser. Which one will you choose?

Golems belong to SoA. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
There are waaaaaay more Fire Gaints, Demons and Drow in ToB than there are Elemntals an Golems. And many players will never fight the Monks anyway. ;)

The enchantment is not a big concern - the way i see it, the off hand weapon is there to give bonuses, not to attack.
A +6 damage bonus is good, you must agree.

And lets not forget, Dundee - the Silver Sword is two-handed, so comparing them is a bit pointless. ;)

This is a good point.
On the other hand - don't you go through this hell anyway, Equalizer or not?
JID is, well... Mandatory. :D
The Beholder Cavern and the Illithid City? I did them even when i thought the Equalizer sucked - they offer other good loot, and TONS of XP.

Honestly? Celestial Fury.
Now, here is a simple question to you. If you had to choose between the pre-analysis Equalizer, or the post-analysis Equaliser. Which one will you choose? ;)

Hmmmm? The very first level of Watcher's Keeps have Golems, Fire Elementals in Yaga Shura's Temple, Magic Golems, Water Elementals in Abazigal's Lair, Air Elementals in Watcher's Keep and the Final Battle. Blah, blah, blah. They be a viable portion of the game. ;) Monks? Right I suppose... but it is soooo fun to take on 50+ enemies. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Like I said, +6 on the main-hand, but the off-hand is still crippled. Why be so concerned about boosting the main-hand only when you can boost BOTH hands?

I mentioned the Silver Sword only because it has a similar enchantment level.
You will be surprised by the number of people who choose to skip the Underdark hotspots. Not everybody enjoys fighting Mind Flayers, and frankly... most non-veterans get fried by the entrance welcome of a Beholder and an Elder Orb.
NEITHER! ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img] Give me the Defender of Easthaven or the Celestial Fury anytime( defensive and offensive respectively). These are the other notable +3 enchanted SoA weapons.

There are times when I do forge the Equaliser for a lark, but more often than not, it collects dust. Looks nice, sounds nice, maybe feels nice, but works nice? Nah... ...

Oh, and before I forget, when you enter ToB... even Celestial Fury begins to pale. You can only imagine how the Equaliser will fare then. Axe of Unyielding, Spectal Brand, Hindo's Doom, Runehammer, etc... ...

Why... you can even throw away the Equaliser before you enter ToB, if you are so evilly-inclined or cheesy.

Blackrazor. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/evilgrinblack.gif

It is a Longsword too to boot!

It just keeps getting worse and worse for the *GASP!* "legendary" item. Pfft! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 11-22-2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Fire Elementals? Its time to take out the dusty Wave from the Bag of Holding! :D

Golems? Crom can insta-kill some, and the rest are easily disposed with any weapon, especially the FoA.

True that.
That's why i like the Improved Yaga Shura battle so much. ;)

But the Equalizer bonuses are applied to both hands!!

PANSIES!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D

*cough* Flail of Ages *cough* ;)

Anyway, neither Celestial Fury nor the Defender of Easthaven - and you know my opinion on these weapons - can add +6 damage to each strike. They add other bonuses, yes - but a +6 bonus is too good to be ignored.

That is my whole point!
The "old" Equalizer would suck in ToB.
The "new", +6 damage to each attack, Equalizer is still useful even in the later stages of ToB! IMO, at least.