Norway killings
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356

At least 80 people dead on island in Norway when crazy gunman executed young left wing people from a political party - he started the day off by setting of a bomb by the OED building in Oslo downtown trying to kill the prime minister ( also of the left wing party ) but failed - the bomb did claim 7 lives and injured 90 people besides blowing out windows in a large area.

Now I normally write on the Simon Wiesenthal Center's facebook page - primarily used by people whom seem inclined to support Israel and the level of bigotry and jumping to conclusions really surprised me.
We know this is the work of a mad man, a right wing nuthead that has to be a complete mad man to walk around executing people the way he did - but still people jumped with the attitude *strike back at muslim terror etc*

Now...I would never support terror, however I think we in the west are as bad escalating the situation by jumping to conclusions and often much worse our show of bigotry towards a religion instead of targeting the extremists and I wonder how will we ever overcome this hatred. The supposed victims....correct that...the victims of WW2 and holocaust had issues and imho had a grievance worth mentioning - how come many of the younger generation i.e those that did not live through holocaust still maintain that they are victims? Get over it....move on - and do your ■■■■■■■ duty to make the world a better place for ALL of us...and not just the ones enjoying your religion?


Am I asking too much?

Am I naiive?

Or do I actually have a good point here?

Re: Norway killings
 

I was hoping that number stayed at 9, but I knew the way the police were acting, it was much worse. f'ing crazy people out there. Another 'head shaker'. Just don't get that... and going after YOUTH?

coward... :pissed:

Re: Norway killings
 

I am completely on page with you there - he walked around for 1½ hour killing young people on sight - and first show of armed police he dropped the guns and surrendered without any resistance. I am against death penalty but I must admit that belief is strained and tested somewhat in this case - but to be honest - putting him to death would also just be too easy.

Re: Norway killings
 

Doesn't Norway have a very conservative gun law like the rest of mainland Europe?

How can things of this nature happen?

I feel for those teens on that island that survived. And feel grievance to the families of the ones who did not. They are all scarred for life. That one young man, "I was running to and from trying to help people, and many could not be helped". Horrible!

Re: Norway killings
 

Same here, but In this case, I bet they'd make an exception for his hanging in town square like the olden days.

What I don't understand was this -- it was a police/army youth camp right? like ROTC in the USA? was there no security? Even ONE person with a simple sidearm 22c could have ended it before NINTY MINUTES (thats what we're hearing). just crazy... :(

Re: Norway killings
 

Yep.. a LOT of survivor guilt it going to happen now. Its normal.. they HAD TO run away from so many friends to save themselves. Something we can't comprehend unless it happened to us... sad as hell.

Re: Norway killings
 

In most European countries like Norway - especially a little picturesque island like this one, cops are few and far between. They usually only appear if you call them. It is not like in the states where you see a cop on the roads at least once an hour or less. Or where you see them patrolling the streets intermittantly during the night. I have found in Europe that residents are left largely to their own devices. These incidents are just so rare and unheard of because of restrictive gun-laws in these states, that there usually is not a need for a heavy, consitent police presence everywhere. Sure, in the big cities you will see them patrolling the streets but the lesser areas receive less attention.

Also in a very many European countries cops don't carry guns so they woulda been in the same boat had they approached him. I don't know much about Norway specifically (I can't remember if their cops have guns) and the story is still developing, but I also wonder about the time it took. But then, this is a little island somehwat secluded. And to make matters worse, the dude was dressed as a cop. I imagine this led to all kids of confusion and chaos. I agree, those kids will be scarred. Hoping they get the mental treatment they need to come to terms with this. Reminds us a bit of that Loughner guy, crazed out of his mind.

Re: Norway killings
 

It was a political movement youth day, politicians usually don't carry firearms, at least not in this part of the world.

Re: Norway killings
 

On a sidenote, some American press agency released a statement shortly after the attacks that some islamic jihadgroup was responsible for the attacks, they even came up with the group's name and the name of their supposed leader (can't seem to recall both atm) and their motives (Mohammed cartoons and Norwegian military involvement in Afghanistan and Lybia). Now, i realize we have freedom of press and all that jazz, but if you release an incrminating story like that, aren't you supposed to at least be able to back that story up with some hard evidence? They DO realise that releasing blatant lies like that could have lead to even more violence, don't they? It's almost like they were actually HOPING that there were muslims involved.

Re: Norway killings
 

That is what we have been attuned for, standard US media protocol! Get the story out, fix what is incorrect later (if at all), just be the first to get it on the AIR!

Re: Norway killings
 

Well, that's very amateuristic, that way every imbecile can make statements based on absolutely nothing. In fact, that's journalism of the same standard as the British paperazzi.

Re: Norway killings
 

ARGH!!!!

That ■■■■■■ actually used hollow points as ammo - many of the wounded have severe tissue damage due to the bullets shrapnel in the body!



Yeah Europe is a lot more conservative in regards to weapons - in Denmark were I live it is possible to have guns, but only for hunting ( so a rifle is cool with a permit ) but automatics, guns and shotguns are a no go.
The same applies to Norway - but hunting is a lot more widespread in Norway due to the ruggednes of the country with mountains running almost like a spine through the whole country. This also means that the country is a lot less populated in comparison to area and as such it would most likely be easier to hide something like this.

A few details about this is he used a 950 kg bomb made from fertilizer, the reason that nobody wondered about the fertilizer is that he bought a farm many years ago...as part of the plan that has been 9 years under way as far as the medias tell it today. On the island he dressed as a cop and called the children to him to answer questions in regards to the bomb and then...well 86 people died on the island so far, 7 in the bombing and 20 more are in critical condition.

When it comes to the ideology I do not think this is a widespread problem in Scandinavia or Europe - these terrible incidents are not normal nor are they totally unheard of - but this term "internal terrorism" were people strike at their own country is rare in the western part of the world - and most likely more accepted in lands on the brink of civil war or such...

Re: Norway killings
 

It is uncomfortable to think how sad it would be to have a sibling or child of your own murdered like that..

<a href=link=http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/lenke.php?co=EE&page=0>You can show support for the victims, and for Norway, here.</a>

Re: Norway killings
 

6 years of preparation...at least. He joined a gun club in 2005 with the aim of getting a gun some time in the future for this. Had a farming company with the aim of buying fertiliser...

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14267007

Re: Norway killings
 

Tragic news. Just an interesting side note that may interest WoW playing European members, this guy was apparently (in addition to MW2) a hardcore WoW raider and GM for a while.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2423044048

Re: Norway killings
 

Actually Johnny, did you know this guy in Nordrassil back in the day? He may have gone by the name Andersnordic or Conservatism.

Re: Norway killings
 

GM ---> Gamemaster

GL ---> Guild Leader


Let's get the abbreviations right mon ami *hehehe*


Truth be told - WoW, MW2 or whatever he played - he has to be one disturbed individual to go around killing people like that. Apparently he actually did listen to several people pleading for their lives - an 11 yrs old kid told him that he had already lost his dad and he was too young to die so he let him be - not that it in any way diminishes what he has done.

I see a lot of people yelling for this guy to get the death penalty - but thats not gonna happen - most likely he will be deemed dangerous for the society and locked away for good in some prison/secure hospital for the mentally insane.

Now had I been a relative I would have yelled for the death penalty too - but as our court systems and penal codes have to objective and not take a personal stance on how to judge criminals it would be a bit hard to kill him. In the end we have to ask if the death penalty would really make a mad man like this discouraged from doing this and I think the answer is no...

...just a thought.

Re: Norway killings
 

Guild Master is the official term for the leader of a guild in WoW. Abbreviated as GM. Maybe other games use GL.

That said, having played D&D for years, I hard a hard time accepting the term "Game Master" referring to the person who referees an RPG, always calling it "Dungeon Master: instead.

Re: Norway killings
 

Had a long winded reply ready for this but decided to just ask around my guild before posting and it seems I was wrong....people do say GM about Guild Master. I must be defect due to my work at blizz - I know internally we have always called it GL for a guild leader ( of course GL is known as Good Luck in WoW ) ... honestly *sigh* hehe


But....back on track the Norwegian authorities have down graded the number of dead to 68 instead of 86 on the island so a little "good" thing in all the depressing grayness

Re: Norway killings
 

LOL in the US we call the guild leaders GMs. We call the Blizz GM Blues.

Re: Norway killings
 

Hmm? You all still play WoW?

I've been in several asian guilds in wow, we normally use

GM - Game Master (the blues who work for Blizz)
GL - Guild Leader (the one who lead the guild)

afaik, In any mmo I've played it's been like that too.

Re: Norway killings
 

So Breivik may end up at one of Norway's luxury prisons eh.

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn....iref=allsearch

Re: Norway killings
 

Yes i heard that from a friend last night, except she told me that his name was Andersonic. The guild he was in was called Unit and was the server's number one ranked guild back in the vanilla days. There are some former Unit members in my guild, but noone seems to remember the guy. Or maybe they just don't wanna talk about it, which would make sense because people usually don't log into WoW to get involved in political debates and such.

Re: Norway killings
 

Probably don't want to be questioned by the police, either...

Re: Norway killings
 

From what i understood he hasn't been active in WoW in a few years, so i doubt people would have any useful info anyway.

Re: Norway killings
 

All I know is I meet countless people in PUGS that are clearly psychotic. Judging WoW players by that standard is a low bar lol. The ragequits i've seen could easily be turned into violence.

Re: Norway killings
 

Andersonic was his name yes - Just got home from a 13 hour trip with my dad to see some cliffs in the southern part of Denmark so I am a bit tired but....IW calls hehe


Luxury prison: I do not think there is a lot of luxury for him - the links you have seen and so on are for prisoners in rehabilitation which nobody wants for him anyway. I know from media comments and the police in Norway that he has been refused access to a labtop, and internet use ( that is normally denied for dangerous prisoners ) a TV is always made available ( but that has also been denied for now ) - The use of TV will be made available though once he has been sentenced at least.

Now many people say luxury - I tend to think of it in this way.

There are two kinds of prisoners in our systems.

1. Rehabilitating people - it is the people that we have a chance to send back into society without risk, and with a minimum of damage to them.
2. The tards that just doesn't get it - it is the people that rehabilitation does not work on and as such is not suitable for society. These people should be locked away and most often they are. However - since we ( in most of Europe ) are humanists that believe that even the worst kind of prisoner deserves a humane treatment then he will get basic needs fulfilled.

Now in the US. the belief seems to be that a cage of see-through plastic is good enough so no privacy, no rehabilitation and definably not the way to do things if you want to turn the villain from crime - why?
Because when you treat people inhumanely they tend to be grouchy - and next time the guy commits a crime he will do anything to get away from being jailed - and with a non-existing gunlaw ---> mayhem.

I saw a dude in the news that actually said that the norwegian kids were tards that did not try to bonk the killer on the head while he was pausing in shooting - as he told it any american kid would have killed the guy outright as he started shooting and as much as he may find the humor in the situation - that remark was so cold and brutal that many people in Denmark protested loudly against it. Looking at pure numbers his statement is further totally idiotic and it makes a very convincing argument about how come gun control ( or rather...the need to take away the guns from ordinary people ) are needed.

Fact:

Gun related kills in USA each year 15.22 per 100.000 inhabitants.
With a population of 308,745,538 people this makes for 46.990 deaths each year.
About 128,7 deaths a day in the entire country.

Gun related kills in Norway each year 4,39 per 100.000 inhabitants.
With a population of 4,974,600 people this makes for 218 deaths each year.
About 0,59 deaths a day in the entire country.

Source is wikipedia on population scale and the 1993 Krug investigation on gun deaths in the world.

Re: Norway killings
 

There are some posts inhere from his char Conservatism..... http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1172957888

Re: Norway killings
 

Psychotic may not be the right word, but they can be extremely rude. Ever since Cataclysm a certain number of people act downright elitist and have little or no patience for screwups in heroics, that used to be a lot more laid back in WotLK. That's why there's a no swear policy in my guild, any signs of swearing or rude behaviour towards others leads to a permban, and as a result i find myself in the nicest and most social guild i've ever seen.

Re: Norway killings
 

*shrug* The American populations and European populations are quite different. Many of the American gun-involved deaths are gang-related.

Re: Norway killings
 

One who has never been on the two-way live fire range can tell tales as high as the sky, but when the brown stuff hits the moving blade, poo flies!

Gun laws will not work in this country, for only outlaws will have guns. Some only take that at face value, but when analysed, the truth is, there are more illegal (non-registered, non-licensed, non-serial numbered) guns in the street, than those of of us who have legally licensed and registered guns! Therefore, "most" of the gun crime that is reported is to registered guns/owners.

If one were to really delve into, and attempt to understand US gun issues, they would find that more gun crime is in the city, and less gun crime in the rural areas. Yet, most cities have gun laws, and rural communities don't. The simple answer to that is, were I park my Benz, my gun is law. Where TL parks his Caddy, his mobile calls the law while he plays bitch to some crack head.

And back to topic, when said crack head has pulled his gun, nobody is going to step up with plain street clothes on, and few will intervene if there is a lull in the firing, as in the AZ shooting! Therefore, that 'dude' is the tard in that story!

P.S. My memory is fading, did I ever ask what part of Denmark?
My bride of 26 years and I were married in Odense.

Re: Norway killings
 

Nice Felix I did not know that - I live just outside Copenhagen - but I had a girlfriend from Aarup ( just outside Odense ) and my father used to live in Odense in his youth ( looong time ago ).

I agree completely with the analysis of how crime is done in the US - I just find it an easy excuse to say that people need guns because the criminals have them - do you think that criminals in Europe come at us with hammers and knives - ofc they have guns here too - difference is they are not as trigger happy because they don't risk their victim will pull out a shotgun and blow them off the ground. ( I kinda like the charm in being able to defend myself - but I like being alive much more ).

Re: Norway killings
 

http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Udland/2011...2.htm?rss=true

This is a link from danish news - it shows a norwegian guy that taped 16 minutes just after the bomb went off - showing him helping out pretty scary

Re: Norway killings
 

Just saw this today. "Chilling" is the word.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43911634...ope/?GT1=43001

Re: Norway killings
 

I will take offense to that, as I picked out my 330cic lovingly and love it dearly, and would never call it a caddie, though those are nice cars. Additionally, were it not for my own laziness (combined with some confusing and difficult to sort out regulation), I too would have a gun, though not on-hand because we don't have CC yet. But, the SCOTUS did do us a mighty favor, and as soon as I get off my butt and comply with the state FOID rules (easy) and figure out the Chicago registration rules (ridiculously maze-like), I too can own a gun, legally. (Being from KY, it's easy for me to get family loaners that are technically illegal, of course.) Furthermore, my hooptie is an '04 model with no OnStar and no mp3 hookup. I have embraced my ludditeness regarding such things and hope to never own a car that will call someone for me in any event whatsoever. Since mine has only gone from 15k to 30k miles since I bought it 5 years ago, I think I can achieve that goal.

Regarding the events in Norway, it has opened up a scary debate. Many are "seeing his point" regarding this man and his shootings. Basically, though they aren't justifying it, they are tempering his actions by pointing out the racial tension going on in the EU at the moment with their immigration crisis. I think this is a dangerous line of thinking.

Re: Norway killings
 

Now we know what to blame. Ta-da

http://techland.time.com/2011/08/01/...ivik-killings/

Re: Norway killings
 

I wish that when countries do this they'd just go the whole nine yards and cut all media off from the population. No video games, TV, music, internet, sports etc. I mean, why just target one medium when there are so many giving access to violent content? Also, cut out family gatherings and cookouts and drinking. In fact, all drugs and anything sociable. And remove guns from Wow, subsituting bows instead. And throw Justin Bieber in there for good measure.

Re: Norway killings
 

Ironic....they are gonna outlaw gun-looking toys, but the real deal can still be purchased with a license...idiots. And classifying WoW as a "shooter" doesnt make any sense either.

Re: Norway killings
 

WoW as a shooter? It's not even got the graphics to support that. BTW, working on Rags atm.

Re: Norway killings
 

Think they targetted wow cuz he played wow "so it must have had something to do with it". Pity they didn't target the shows he watched on TV or the music he listened to.