Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Wow. I didn't realise things were that bad in Greece. I knew they'd shafted themselves by living beyond their means on borrowed money, but geez.

Brings up the question - America has been living beyond its means, to a large extent on borrowed money as well. Obviously the communist/socialist movement is stronger in Greece than it is here, but could this happen here down the road?

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Now apparently the Greek government is thinking of suing Wall St banks for loaning them money beyond their capacity to pay! LOL. If your budget deficit is 14% of your GDP you can't really say you went into things with eyes wide shut.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

You asked if the USA was headed down the same path.... Yes we are. In fy 2000 the total debt (on the books debt) was approx 56% of GDP, in fy 2008 the debt was approx 68%, in fy 2010 the debt will be approx 94% pf GDP with a yearly deficit of over 10%, that's $1,560,000,000,000 short fall. That's nearly 4 times the deficit in fy 2008. We're not under taxed we're overspent. We have to get it under control and under control quickly, I don't know what the spark will be, but I do know that if we don't get it under control the USA will burn from sea to shining sea. When we go down the rest of the world goes down, we're the Number #1 consumer, no business can survive when it's best customer quits buying.

The last offical US budget was passed in 06 or 07( I can't recall off the top of my pointed head), there has not been a budget passed since then, only continuing spending resolutions which have grown dramaticly.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Yeah if things don't change in the very near future, we're next. From what I've read, even if we do change things over here, the markets are still going to feel the impact of Europe's current situation. Is there a nation anywhere that's actually operating with 0 debt?

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

The USA thought the dow hitting 6000-ish was scary a while back? That was a bump. I have a bad feeling we're about to be hit with the one-two. This is the 'two'.

I've seen the spending friends do--buying a new car every other year, buying crazy stuff they put on credit cards.. It's all gonna default soon--I know MANY people that are about to file bankruptcy, or are on near it.

The ONLY way this can be 'fixed' is do a massive reset of all loans. basically kill all debt, and start over with new rules. or rules to protect abuse. hell, I don't know if this would work, as it would cause all stocks to fall to zero. since there would be nothing to trade worth a damn. :(

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

<font color=plum>Yes - we are headed in the same direction and are probably a lot closer to our own downfall than we care to consider. We've always been a materialistic nation, but the explosion of consumerism seems to have started in the early 80's with new technologies coming out and an economy strong enough to support uninhibited spending by many people. It got turbo-charged in the 90's with the market going through the roof - for awhile. Then the market began it's series of inevitable adjustments.

In the meantime, many Americans simply do NOT know how to separate NEEDS from WANTS! They consider them to be the same thing. I want it so I need to buy it RIGHT NOW!

I worked with a girl several years ago who had bought a new Mustang. Her car payment was higher than my house payment. Her car got repossessed, so she took out a personal loan to make the back-payments on her car loan and got her car back. A couple of months later, she ended up filing for bankruptcy. Did she learn anything from this? NO! The first day at work after her bankruptcy hearing, she was surfing the internet to plan a beach vacation. She said "Now that my debt has been wiped out, I can afford to go to the beach this summer. In fact, I might even be able to take two vacations" :facepalm:</font>

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

IMHO we missed the last chance for a semi-orderly reset with the Tarp Bailouts, we shouldn't have ever done that. I agree Ziroc, I don't see how we can do a reset, without causing a complete colapse of the worlds markets, now. There might could be some kind of thing done where the banks/credit card companies, lenders make a deal to cut all debts by a percentage in order to make the landing a little softer. Though I wouldn't hold my breath that is going to happen. The banks and lenders have been for the last decade or so looking at what they can get, the interest rates, if they get it back. Not at if they lend the money will they get it back. Inshort counting their chickens before they hatch, something my Granny taught me not to do.

The good news is if one can hang on until it all colapses, there will be to many houses/cars/what evers for the banks to reposses they won't have enough employees to collect the toys, kick people out of their houses, etc. Make friends with your nieghbors, now because it's easier to do it now, then later when everybody is scrambling.

The bad news is with nearly everyone in the same boat and scrambling for resourses/food etc., there will be lots of violence. With the populations in the industral nations being 50-50 or 51-49 in the cities to rural. Apartment dwellers will have a hard time growing food. Sure folks can ban together and start gardens in the common areas, but all that is needed is a couple of A**holes to raid the Gardens and strip them of the food while eveybody sleeps to screw the pooch for everybody.

I know folks will think I'm being pessimistic, but I would say I'm being realistic. Look around and see how people treat each other. Watch the news see how folks steal from each other, kill each other, and that's when times are relatively good. What is going to happen when times get realy bad?

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Cerek and JD, please quit with the senseless diatribe and rhetoric. We are not headed in the same direction, because we DO NOT march in protest against our banks and we DO NOT blame our banks for the problems we have. (Even though perhaps we should.) Instead we THROW MONEY at our banks. We almost worship them, with reverence, it would seem.

I have never heard of or seen a government employee protest march in the US, much less one that turned violent. I have seen government workers in some limited areas, such as Cook County, strike over wage negotiations, but nothing akin to a march or anything that turned violent. In fact, the only violent marches I have seen or heard of in this country since the civil rights era are marches perpetrated by environmental or anti-establishment groups, such as those in Seattle some 15 or more years ago.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

BTW, in case anyone hasn't noticed, Americans have very quickly become much more responsible. Credit rates have shot up to an average of 710. This means that in the face of this crisis, people are shedding their debt, paying their bills, and hunkering down. (Note that someone who defaults or goes bankrupt does not have a rising credit score, so the only explanation for this rise is that people are paying off debt.)

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Some high-ups say they want to switch to the 'Amero'. That might sound nice, but Mexico would destroy that quickly. I'd be different if they were more like Canada. (i.e. Stable)

I don't know.. I have always said greed is the downfall of all things, but wow, this is ridiculous. :)

My friends upgrade their PC's every YEAR it seems, and dump it on a credit card. I try to explain to them that software/games never catch up to the latest and greatest quickly, so upgrading every 3 years is more realistic. (I upgrade every 2-3 years.. mostly 3 years) as I don't play many games, it's mostly for graphics and website/forum creation.

I look and see prices on things... like I wanted to get a Beckett's baseball price guide--to see how my older baseball cards are doing, but they want $9.99 for a black and white (phonebook quality crap) pages. It USED TO be $3.99 a few years ago, so I said no thanks. I'll do without. That $10 can be a meal, or go to something more important right now...

We just gotta cut back. These credit card companies even try to get people right out of Bankruptcy to get a credit card--you would think they wouldn't want that, with a bad credit rating and all, but guess what? You can't file for bankruptcy for another 7 years (I believe its 7--something like that) and these credit card companies KNOW this, so they try to rope you in and basically have you under their foot at that time. So evil.... But it's also the person that is crazy enough to get that card, right? :)

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Exactly! If this is how we did it all along, we'd be fine! Hell, we may not have the latest silly phone/camera/projector/app spazz toy, but we'd be ok with the economy.

Living within our means. Repeat that when you're tempted by some flashy new toy :)

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Unfortunately the American people can be as responsible as they want, but if the gov't persists in spending money that we don't have, we will end up just like greece financially at the least. I don't know if we'll have rioting and violent protests, but I don't know that we won't either.

As far as John D's comment about food growing in urban areas, well, roof gardens are becoming very popular these days. Difficult to steal from those without someone knowing, moreso than a garden on ground level anyway.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Well, socialism starts when you have a disenfranchised majority that feels like they are being shafted by an elite minority. Main Street - Wall Street maybe?

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Well, the Greeks got aid from their EU partners, but u can ask yourself if the money will ever be repaid...... on the other hand, this was only the tip of the iceberg, because apparently the Portugese and Spanish economies are pretty much in the same position the Greeks found themselves in, and it won't be long before countries like Bulgaria and Romania come knocking on the door either.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

I heard that France warned the UK to "Not ask for help in the future" since the UK wouldn't help out the EU/Greece bailout... Hmmm..

The UK has issues themselves I thought?? How can they help bail out others at the moment?

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

And you call yourself an American!!!! Hah!

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

We don't blame our banks?????? WOW that's news to me and I imagine that's news to the writers of the finance reform act, everyone who said it's Wall Street's fault. The problem is throwing money at the problems, that is what has caused a dramatic increase in the debt in the last two years. Sure we haven't have protests yet, we haven't hit where Greece is yet, soon but not yet. Just wait until there are massive cuts because we can't pay for everything. We've gone from a little over $10 trillion to $13 trillion in debt in two years

TL I did say we shouldn't have thrown money at the banks, we should never have done the TARP bailout, I've said that many times.

Oh TL you forgot the SEUI Union workers that attacked and beat a man at a tea party rally, where they were counter protesting, and the anti Arizona immigration law protesters that chased pro protesters away from the State capital. The attacks where a nearly 80 year old woman, amoung others was attacked at the Republican convention, had a caustic substance thrown on her. The riots in South Central, the shootings in New Orleans when the poop hit the fan there. I hope there aren't any riots when the colaspe happens but I'm not holding my breath.


Edit: I forgot TL isn't Chicago talking about wanting the National Gaurd to come in and help with law enforcement, because of the high murder rate? Riots by gov't employees ain't the only game in town.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

That's good thinking, good ole American know how.

Fire, all I'm saying is think ahead, as the boy scouts say "be prepared", or as the Gov't PSA's urge make a plan.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

In performing Bread & Circus before the cameras, sure they bleat and blather that it's Wall Street's fault. But the fixes are simple, and they are avoiding them at all costs.

- Repeal Gramm-Leach-Bliley's modifications to the Glass-Steagall Act. (Link.) This would prevent banks from owning other financial institutions. Easy peasy to fix -- but oh the bankers would never allow that.

- Allow the CFTC to regulate the financial derivatives market. This is what the CFTC sought to do originally -- because making bets on futures of financial derivatives is no different essentially than making bets on corn futures or oil futures or sugar beet futures. Again, the banks reacted to this by convincing Congress to pass a law FORBIDDING the CFTC from regulating the derivatives market -- forbidding it from doing its job. Now, instead of going back and putting financial derivatives squarely where they should be -- i.e. under CFTC regulation -- our gummint, in its infinite wisdom is creating a whole new bureaucracy to govern this commodity. Stupid is as stupid does.

I'm sorry but any "hatred" you perceive toward the banks is a big snow job. They own us, they own our government, and we and our government are behaving accordingly.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

You're correct about the repeal TL... I wrote that several years ago, though I didn't know the name of the law that alowed investment banks and commercail banks to merge. I wrote about it when the Housing bubble burst, when nearly everybody was screaming about GWB. I said then Wooa wait a minute, it was President Clinton who signed the law repealing the protections put in place after the great Depression. You're right they did alow the derivatives market to run amock, and did so to protect the banks and alow them to lend money so everybody could have a house. I preached it back then it was a mistake, but of course since I'm a right winger It didn't matter what I said. I was against TARP, and Proudly wrote that Both my Senators and my Congressman voted against it.

I'm sorry to hear you feel the banks own you, but I can tell you right now no man owns me. I'll die on my feet before I live on my knees. I've made the choice and nothing short of God Himself will make me change, and believe me my wife's got 23 years of trying. The only thing I owe the bank is my house, if'n they want it they can have it, but they don't want it because I pay my mortagage, they want the money not the house. I don't own a credit card, if I don't have the cash for something I don't need it. I've writen for years "It's not the high cost of living that gets you, It's the cost of living High (on the hog)"


I NEVR WROTE anything about Hatered for the Bank, I wrote "I imagine that's news to the writers of the finance reform act, everyone who said it's Wall Street's fault." in response to your statement: "we DO NOT blame our banks"... Well Hale fire and brinstone TL for someone who doesn't blame the banks you do a mighty fine job of not blaming them with this statement about Banks: "They own us, they own our government, and we and our government are behaving accordingly."

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

I think you're missing the point, JD. Over here we may make a big show out of beating up on the banks.... we may put bank leaders up in front of Congress and beat them up, and whatnot. But we don't really punish them. We don't have massive protest crowds dragging out ballpeen hammers and petrol bombs and tossing them in local branch banks.

You may not feel that the banks own "You" but really, if they own your Congress, your neighbors, your community -- then what difference is it, really? Not much, if you ask me.

Being against TARP is something that crosses party lines. I was all for big gummint spending to get us out of the recession -- but I thought it could all be spent on fixing roads, bridges, etc etc. I was totally against TARP and the auto bailout. So, you on the right and me on the left/center agreed on that.

But our Congressmen, on the right and left, differed with us. They crossed party lines and agreed to enjoy fellating the banks, nom nom nom.

When the majority of the people running the Federal Reserve and the SEC are former Goldman Sachs alums, what can we really expect?

Plenty of blame to go around here. Clinton was giving the ultimate payoff to the big money people who helped slide him into the Oval Office -- make no mistake, when bankers met the charismatic Arkansas Democrat who was willing to "play ball" with the economy, they were all too happy to back him monetarily and politically getting into office. But GWB then pulled back directives for the SEC and CFTC, essentially having the agencies become yes-men. And let's not forget that Alan Greenspan, a staunch conservative, was the "godfather" of the economy at the time, the one who led the charge against having the CFTC regulate financial derivatives, under both administrations, and the one who worked feverishly to keep the housing bubble propped up, even while saying it was probably a bubble. (Hey at least Greenspan has recanted for his ways, neither GWB or Clinton has had the decency to do that.)

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Glenn Beck much? You're just ripping his fear rhetoric right from his show. Neither you, or loony Glenn, have any evidence of this armegeddon-like scenario. These are simply the rantings of a paranoid megalomaniac. The difference between you and him is, he gets paid MILLIONS to spew it. You do it for free.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

You're right Congress makes a show about beating up the Banks, why do they do that? TO GET VOTES from the people, you don't get votes from the people if you are beating up the banks show or not if the people don't feel the banks need beating up. True Congress's talk and actions are rarely the samething. The problem is the debt which keeps rising estemated to be 1.6 trillion this year over 10% of gdp, though I think 1.5 is more accurate. We don't have the protests yet, but if we don't get the debt under control we will. I didn't write we are Greece NOW, I wrote we will be, as in the in the future if we don't get our house in order. Your origninal premis was we aren't going to be like Greece because we don't blame the Banks, yet you mention the FED and all the GoldmanSach (a Bank) folks running it, Congratulations TL you're waking up to it*, so are a lots of other folks. If we don't get our house in order, folks will start blaming the Banks.

TARP and the stimulus package aren't the samething, TARP was pushed through by GWB for the banks, the stumlus was pushed through by BHO. The stimulus was pushed through for the wrong reasons, you don't spend money you don't have on roads to stimulate the economy, when the reason the economy is in trouble is because you've spent to much money. You spend money you don't have on roads because you need roads. If the economy get stimulated Great, if the economy doesn't get stimulated great, because the reason you spent the money you don't have is to build roads. We pissed the money away on an illusion, adding to what is the real problem, debt.

We're getting lectured by communist China???? Told by them we have to get our house in order. Hales bells TL China, has a history of having only two classes the rulers and everybody else, What the Hale do they know about a free market? Right now they are artificaly keeping their money low, same freaking thing the USSR did and we all saw how well that worked out. China does have it right, that we better get our house in order, because they know we are the real engine. Our consumming, but we are penny wise and dollar foolish. We the people are pissing our money away right and left, buying stuff on credit, Hale Leasing cars???? WTF Leasing a car??? Good grief, somehow somewhere we got the bright Idea that we are going to lay down a bunch on money, Money that we have traded our life for on a car, then make payments for years on and when we get done we don't even own the Car. Hale where I come from that's called renting. I own the same beat up Pick-up truck I had 11 years ago when I joined the board. I just put a new tranny in it cost me $1,000 If I only get another 3 years out of it, I'm paid less then $30 a month and I own it. Vs Someone who Leased (rented) ploped $2,500 down and pays $250 a month for 3 years, pays $11,000 and doesn't have anything to show for it.

We as a nation can't keep spending 3.6 trillion when we only take in 2 trillion or so. It ain't going to work. There is no math that will make that work.

TL I made a consious(sp?) choice 28 years ago I walked away from a good job in a big company where I could have gone to the top making a poop load of money. I didn't want to live in the big city I walked away from the rat race. I own my own company, am my own boss, I make less money ajusted for inflation then I ever have, but I work when I want to, I work to pay for what I need and want, happier then I ever have been. My wife and I are saving our money to go completely off grid.

* I don't subscribe to worldwide conspriacy of the banks, trilateral commission, Billaburgers, templars or masons. I subscribe to something much simpler.... basic human greed is the motivator, lust of money and power.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Think what you want SW, what ever gave you the Idea I really care much what you think?

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

The fact that you responded.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

As long as it's done in a civil manner, everyone's opinion is going to be heard here, whether people care or not. Focus on the topic not the person though. :)

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

What you don't realize is that it's the Illuminati. :)

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

It can't happen soon enough.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Elf, If'n anyone wants to contribute I accept cash, check, and credit cards :D

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

LOL! I can hardly believe he even wrote that sentence.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

$13,001,000,000,000 and counting, just gots'ta love it, nothing better then going deeper in debt to get out of debt.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

I dunno. Going to war with a countries on the basis of a lie is kinda neat too.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

I'm surprised everyone just takes the original article at face value. As far as I can see, there are a lot of very negative generalizations about the supposed 'nature' of the Greek populace, but not a single citation to back up any of those claims. Very little in terms of facts, just one long sensationalist rant.
I understand the shift in focus in the responses to US politics (and perhaps it's not as relevant to the current discussion), but I felt it had to be mentioned.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

From an economics perspective, stereotyping and generalizing are perfectly acceptable. Why did Japan have trouble crawling out of its economic slump in the 1990's? Because as a people they are "born to save" which creates a negative feedback loop when the economy needs spending to revive itself. Stereotype? You betcha. Racist? You betcha. True? Again, yes indeed. Useful for understanding the problem? Ayup.

Re: Greece laid low by its decadence
 

Two years and two weeks later the Debt is $15,770,000,000,000... 2.7 TRILLION dollars in two years.... 2,770 BILLION Dollars.... 2,770,000 Million dollar more and we are still draggin along bottom... Hmmm... SO How's that going deeper into debt to get out of Debt stuff going there for you? We have to Spend lots and lots of Money to turn around the economy... How's that working out for you? We're not like Greece we don't march in the streets or riot... Occupy Wall Street ring a bell there bubba? ROTFLMAO you just gotsta love it.