1e Bard
 

There is one, right? :) Does anyone know in what book there is information about the bard? Or Dragon Magazine number if that is where it appeared...

Re: 1e Bard
 

It's in the Player's Handbook! Because it is such a strange/weird/unfair class (fighter, thief, and druid abilities (attack AND healing magic), plus more), it was put at the end of the book in an appendix.

Re: 1e Bard
 

D'oh! I totally knew that, too. :D I got the ol' hard copy out and was flipping through it and thought to myself that I had seen it many times...

Thanks for pointing it out to me. :ninjas:

Re: 1e Bard
 

I just figured out why I didn't see it in the pdf I have of the PHB, there is just white space between the psionics and outer planes appendices... :(
Now, I have to try and remember where I got it so I can let them know. Maybe I'll just type the section out by hand and post it somewhere instead for the whole world to use. :D:D:D

Re: 1e Bard
 

If I have some free time, I can type it out for you perhaps... :D

(Guess someone didn't like bards...)

Re: 1e Bard
 

Too late. :) I have out the ol' magnifying glass and am working away at it. :D:D:D

I think this class will be too hard to do in DC, though one could create a class that mimiced fighters for 6 levels or so, then mimiced thieves for another 6 levels and then follow the bard table in the book. That helps balance them out in some ways, too. A first level bard is nowhere near as powerful as a 13th level anything. :)

Re: 1e Bard
 

That is true! Still, at higher levels, the comparatively low amounts of XP needed to become a 6th level anything become small, and they should become strong enough to compare with their single-classed counterparts, I think...

It may be fairly difficult to make bards work in DC, but if we DO, that would definitely be a step in the right direction (to help Dragonlance afficionados and such, for example, add the various "high level" classes). Bards are a bit difficult in that they do have TWO prerequisite classes, after all (not just one).

But your idea of doing bards as a single class might work (as long as it is possible to not give them HD for their thief levels, etc.).

Re: 1e Bard
 

I was thinking about the HD issue, and reading on the AD&D newsgroup. There seems to be a split in the community as to whether they should get HD as a thief and a bard - the book (which is at home) seems to say they continue to get HD.

Re: 1e Bard
 

As a thief? Hmm - I will have to check that myself - that would be a lot of hp for anyone! (They are already unfair enough in that they get HD after 2nd level of bard (regardless of their previous HD.) This would give them a maximum of 7d10 + 9d6 + 10d6 + 12 hp... or 196 hp! (To get the equivalent (sans CON bonuses), a fighter would have to reach level 44 or so, requiring about 9,000,000 XP. The maxed-out bard would only have accrued about 3,174,000 XP, on the other hand... The only detriment of the bard would be that his THAC0 is only that of a 7th level fighter, but he does have most thief abilities, up to 5th-level druid spells, and other powers, so I would say that bards have the edge here :) )

...but anyway, I would (as a DM) not give bard-wannabes the thief HD (anyway, the bard-wannabe might change his mind and stay as a dual-classed fighter/thief).

Re: 1e Bard
 

Statistically, their hp would be 121 at a total of 39 levels.

Their thief skills would be those of a 9th level thief. Hmmm, what are their weapon and armor restrictions? As good as I thief as I recall.

Let's see, 39th level fighter on a statistical average is going to have 145 hp and a much better THAC0, will be attacking twice per round and sweeping most mundane creatures in attack. I guess a better comparison would be a ranger. :) A 39th level ranger will have 110 hp on statistical average and in other ways will be like a fighter, with the addition of 3 levels of druidic spells and 2 levels of mage spells. They seem kind of broken, too. To be honest, all super hero characters are broken. :D:D:D

Re: 1e Bard
 

Bards can use club, dagger, dart, javelin, sling, scimitar, spear, sword (bastard, long, or short), and staff and wear leather or magical chain but cannot use shields. (Pretty restrictive, actually.)

They could specialize in a weapon and maybe even double-specialize while they are fighters, though, to raise their attacking speed and damage...

THAC0 for a 39th level fighter in 1e would be 4 compared to 14 for a bard (staying at the THAC0 of a 7th level fighter), or considerably better. In fact, THAC0 may be the biggest weakness for the bard - only a maximum-level assassin (also THAC0 14) is as bad (but specialization would help).

As for rangers, 1e rangers definitely are the way to go :) (Specialization, double specialization, druid spells, magic-user spells, and lots of damage on most humanoids is great!)

Re: 1e Bard
 

Hmm, does this mean that manikus started off as a power gamer? :D

The answer, of course, is no. manikus, or so I have heard became a ranger all those years ago because of some fellow named "Strider". :ninjas:

Re: 1e Bard
 

The ninja? :D

Rangers also started off with up to 16 hp + CON bonuses (x 2?) - good for 1st-level insurance, I say. :D

Re: 1e Bard
 

You could end up with a 1st level ranger with 20 hp. :D manikus, I believe, started with 12 or 13. Ah, those were the days - you did a whole gaming session and if the DM was in a good mood you might go up a level. :) Versus today's computer versions and if you're not leveling every 30 to 60 minutes you are doing something wrong.

Um, the rumors about manikus going off to become a ninja are completely untrue - he went off to become a jedi. :D:D:D

Re: 1e Bard
 

Games have undergone "level inflation," partially because of the influence of Japanese CRPGs, where level 76 (or whatever) was quite common (as were exceeding amounts of HP).

Jedi, ninja, same thing, different clothes :D

Re: 1e Bard
 

World of Warcraft certainly bears this out with the top levels being 80 or so.

I think a big part of the difference is between in-person and computer RPGs. Let's be honest, there isn't a lot of role playing going on in most commercial RPGs - they are mostly about killing things.

Re: 1e Bard
 

That's for sure!

Another thing about level inflation - easy lower levels are another element (beginning with Dragon Quest I, where you needed to kill but 7 slimes or so to go to level 2).

Level 2 was a huge thing in AD&D.

Re: 1e Bard
 

I remember the first time I played a cleric - getting that first spell was huge! :)

Re: 1e Bard
 

Make them a split class ala the Ninja form OA. The player creating a Bard must qualify(attribute-wise and racially) for one of the 'primary' classes(Fighter, Thief, Druid, or Magic-user/illusionist) as well as for the Bard class(which should have pretty high req's for Wisdom, Dex and Charisma). Bards get the HD and Save throws of their 'primary' class as well as the combat ability/to hit tables of that class. In addition to their 'Legend Lore' skill they should have teh ability to perform magical songs in combat. In early levels they might simply give moral bonuses/cure fear etc. but later on may be able to cast 'sleep' or charm monster effects while playing and singing(bonus for using an instrument as well as their voice).

Re: 1e Bard
 

I don't really want to make a 3e bard, not for the 1e game idea at least. :)

The PHB is pretty specific that bards do not gain any magical ability until after they've put in their time as a fighter and a thief.

Some time after version 1.0 of DC is out, I think it would be pretty cool to start working on a 3e or 4e version, but they are too different to pull of right now.

Re: 1e Bard
 

I was not suggesting a 3e or 4e version(I don't like 3e bards much either). I was suggesting a solution to the problem that was already precedented in AD&D1e with other classes such as the Ninja, the Archer/Archer-Ranger(another alternate class created by AD&D designers for Dragon) and such. And my suggestion was not only more accurate in covering the various flavors of Bard that appear in fantasy sources but it is also rather simple to do(unlike the 'official' 1e bards).

Was just an idea.

Re: 1e Bard
 

Sounds great. :) I look forward to seeing what you do with the bard.

There is already some artwork that is bard-esque - various musical instruments and a small pic of someone playing a lute.

I do realize that there are more to bards than this, and other may also play instruments, sing, etc, but for ease of representation, these images should at least help.

Re: 1e Bard
 

?

I am sorry but I don't follow you. I am not doing anything with Bards or DC at all(Don't remember if any graphics I did for DC at any point ever got uploaded anywhere either). I thought YOU were doing DC since Cocospud quit(I have followed DC for...well, too long now. Probably since it began or close to ten years now but I do not work on the game.).

Re: 1e Bard
 

Well, then I think we misunderstand each other on another level (at least one) as well. This thread is my own personal musing on 1e bards. Bards are not going to be added to the Official version of Dungeon Craft - they are outside the scope of the project. I assumed that since you were giving advice that it was a reflection of how you might do it in your own personal module. I apologize for the mis-communication. Almost nothing proposed in this forum is for the Official project and only part of what is talked about. I do try and mention it when it is, but I'm sure there are things that I've missed.