Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 183 dead hundreds injured
 

Terrible stuff. What is our world coming to?

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

I grieve for those who have been slaughtered in this senseless attack. I feel pity for those who think that this is the best way to get their point across.

After 9/11, when the airline crackdown on supposed weapons took place, I took inventory of what I *was* allowed to bring on the plane... and realized that I still had enough weapons to be able to defend, divert, or attack as needed.

Haven't needed to do that yet, and hope I don't have to. But I will...

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Sheesh Felix, you really ARE The Assassin!

This is a really tough thing for me as well. I get really angry when I hear this sort of thing. It stirs emotions I would rather not bring to the surface.

I try to keep in a Christian perspective, which is one of peace and love first. It's very, very hard when I read think stuff though and it's virtually a daily read.

We have been given the freedom to do whatever we want, but judgment will come, and woe to those who commit these acts when it does.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

But that's fighting fire with fire. You kill one and another takes their place because the real enemy is an ideology. I mindset. A set of values that say it's ok to kill a human to achieve your aims. By killing someone, even to protect people, you're still doing the same thing.

Ghandi proved that nonviolence was able to beat the biggest Empire of his day.
Jesus of course was the ultimate example of self-sacrifice triumphing.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Tough men patrol at night to allow women, children and gentlemen to sleep in peace.
Firefighters conduct a back burn to prevent a fire from gaining more affluence.
A prison prolongs a perp from conducting a crime.
The death sentence prevents that perp from ever conducting another crime.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
George Orwell

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Exactly.

While I will never condone what the $@#$#heads have done, and I hope they get what they deserve, what Yorick and machinehead have said is completely true, how can we ever hope to get anywhere if we react to violence with violence?

Now I don't know the perfect solution, I don't have any idea what will make these people stop what they do (except maybe a bullet, but that isn't solving the problem)

I guess some people just have violence and a stupid sense of "pride/honour" built into them through childhood that cannot be removed.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

root cause of all this horrid death - religion (again)

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

And why not "ideology" or "thoughts" or "desires". They're all present and play a part in the terrorists motives.

If anything, the TYPE of religion is the issue: what is believed. Not "religion" or having beliefs per se.

I mean otherwise what is everyone to do? Mutely walk around not believing anything? Just robots without frontal lobes?

Everyone has a worldview. Everyone has faith in something, even if it's faith that their doubts are more true than anything else.

PS. Oh, and people love to point the finger at religion when a few muslims kill 80 people, but ignore the 180 million Muslims in Indonesia just getting on with their lives, having kids loving each other and trying to survive in peace. Is religion to blame for all the good stuff too, all the purpose and life it gives people? Or just the bad stuff when some people commit atrocities in a religions name?

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

yyyup, you're probably right,
I have not heard if this is being done in the name of "Ala" or just for the sake of terror.

I echo what Yorick is saying though. We all seem to get thrown into the same "religious" pot.

Christianity has made a bad name over the centuries with the atrocities committed in the name of God. I think we have learned a lot since then and it does not happen any more: except for the odd extremists, which we must always be wary of.

I don't know what these people are after. I wonder if most of them know it themselves.

The only real good thing (if you can call it that) is that is reminds me of how lucky I am to live here in Canada. Even my customer (they are all in the US) said yesterday "you never here anything bad happening in Canada".

Of course we have violence of sorts every day, but I know what she meant.

I can certainly empathize with you Felix. These stories really make my blood boil. I hate guns; I don't even like to touch them, but when hear this sort of thing, it does make me want to "take up arms".
But, I choose the latter. I pray and hope for peace. I pray I understand what has taken these people to the point where they would kill another human being. I can't even kill a bug; 'cept mosquito's..

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

It's bandying semantics, but I won't lay the root cause at religion. At the misinterpretation of religion, perhaps, but not religion itself.

I'm reminded of a line from Tucker, a book by Old West author Louis L'Amour. Shell Tucker is talking with his dad after Shell started hanging out with some local "tough" guys.

Shell Tucker learns what real men are about... not the wannabe big men that often seem much bigger than they really are.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

thanks for the update cd,

They still don't know who's responsible,

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Update, close to the bottom it gives some info on who they were.
<break>
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...4AP75S20081129
<break>
Commandos mop up last of Mumbai militants
By Rina Chandran and Greg Beitchman Rina Chandran And Greg Beitchman – Sat Nov 29, 3:24 am ET
<break>
MUMBAI (Reuters) – Indian commandos killed the last Islamist gunmen holed up at Mumbai's Taj Mahal hotel on Saturday, ending a three-day battle at landmarks across India's financial capital that killed at least 195 people.

"Taj is under our control," Mumbai police chief Hasan Gafoor told Reuters, shortly after the building was raked by heavy gunfire as flames leapt from windows.

At least three militants and one trooper were killed after a running gunbattle through a maze of corridors, rooms and halls, the country's commando chief, Jyoti Krishna Dutt, told reporters.

The gunmen had set parts of the hotel ablaze as they played cat and mouse with scores of India's best-trained commandos, known as the Black Cats.

Sniffer dogs were taken into the iconic 105-year-old hotel and ambulances arrived. Some commandos did a final sweep of the rooms, while others boarded buses to pull out, looking exhausted.

Ratan Tata, the chairman of the Tata Group of companies which owns the hotel, arrived at the premises later in the morning. He may be shocked by what he finds when he is finally let inside.

"The lobby is an absolute mess," said Manish Mundra, a volunteer who was bringing food to security forces and had been inside the hotel. "The furniture is broken, there is water everywhere they are never going to be able to reuse any of that stuff."

Black streaks of soot stained the grey bricks, white balconies and red-tiled roofs of the hotel's facade. Two of its corner stained-glass windows were broken.

The Taj Mahal was the last battleground after three days of intense fighting in various parts of the city of 18 million.

Several newspapers said some of the militants had checked into the Taj hotel some days or weeks before the attacks, while the Times of India said they had rented an apartment in the city a few months ago pretending to be students.

On Friday, an army general said the gunmen appeared to be "very, very familiar" with the layout of the hotel, giving them a crucial advantage over his men. They were also well trained.

"At times we found them matching us in combat and movement," one commando told the Hindustan Times. "They were either army regulars or have done a long stint of commando training."

DEATH TOLL

The local disaster control room said at least 195 people had been killed, the death toll rising as bodies were collected from the luxury Taj and nearby Trident-Oberoi hotels, scene of another siege that ended on Friday.

Well-dressed but haggard-looking guests were let back to their rooms in the Trident wing of the hotel on Saturday morning to collect their belongings.

Staff said they would re-open that wing on Wednesday, but not the Oberoi wing which was badly hit by a long gunbattle.

The Trident lobby was covered in broken glass, with bullet holes in the glass stair banisters and in the doors leading into the Opium bar. A grand piano was left unscathed, but cars parked outside were also riddled with bullet holes.

India blamed the strike on "elements" from Pakistan, raising tensions between the nuclear-armed rivals. Pakistan said the two countries faced a common enemy and it would send a representative of its spy agency to share intelligence.

But Islamabad backtracked from an earlier promise to send the chief of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), a move unlikely to calm Indian tempers and raise fresh questions about who is in charge of the shadowy agency.

The militants' action has struck at the heart of a city that is the engine room of an economic boom that has made India a favorite emerging market.

It is also home to the "Bollywood" film industry, the epitome of glamour in a country still blighted by poverty.

An Indian state minister said one of the militants arrested was a Pakistani national and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh warned of "a cost" if India's neighbors did not take action to stop their territory being used to launch attacks.

The arrested man has confessed to being a member of the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group, which has long fought Indian forces in disputed Kashmir and was blamed for an attack on India's parliament in December 2001, newspapers said.

But Pakistan's Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi struck a conciliatory note and promised full cooperation.

"Whoever has done this is neither your friend nor our friend," he told reporters in New Delhi. "We are not responsible for this, nor is it in our interest to get involved in something like this."

The attacks were carried out by at least ten young men armed with rifles and grenades, some of whom arrived by sea, who fanned out across Mumbai on Wednesday night to attack sites popular with tourists and business executives. Of these nine had been killed, Indian police said.

Authorities said 18 foreigners were among the dead. At least 295 people were wounded.

Three Germans, five Americans, one Australian, a Briton, one Canadian, two French, an Israeli, an Italian, a Japanese, a Singaporean and a Thai, were among the dead, according to various governments.

(Reporting by New Delhi, Mumbai and Islamabad bureau; Writing by Simon Denyer; Editing by Alistair Scrutton and Valerie Lee)

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Gotta love the name Ratan Tata.

Anyway, Kashmir related militants were suspected pretty early in the attack.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

I just don't know why we don't all start throwing generalisations around. Like:
1. Ah yes! It's the fault of property ownership once again!
2. Tsk tsk it's all because we have nations.
3. It's groups. There should be no groups allowed only individuals.

The whole shebang about Christianity getting a bad rap because of the crusades is the most tired hoohar around.
1. "Christendom" lost. The crusades were a disaster on every front and won by Islam.
2. "Going to war in the name of Jesus" is a contradiction if it's physical and involves killing. Surely that's evidence of a serious misunderstanding of christian theology.
3. You can check a person's stated beliefs against what they do. Generally speaking, and with exceptions, violence and war are the result of either religions FAILING, or religions being misused by people to motivate others to fight for them (ie. old men who preach martyrdom to Palestinian kids, but who don't martyr themselves)

I'd like to make one last generalisation about this conflict in Mumbai.

It's all the fault of the English. Wherever they ruled and then partitioned, violence has resulted: Palestine (partitioned into Israel and Jordan) Ireland (Ulster Unionists vs IRA) and India (partitioned into India, Pakistan and Bangladesh).

So it's all the fault of English bureaucracy. Roight????

Or we could just say that each individual is responsible for their own actions, and that the fault of what's happening in Mumbai is directly because these people have decided that violence and ending human lives to achieve their aims is somehow justifiable, and have acted accordingly.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Wellard, what would you like those of us with faith to do?
Just take your word and say <font color=yellow>"ah yes, my religious faith that gives me hope, and purpose and actually keeps me alive each day has somehow caused people in Mumbai to die. Therefore I shall go against what I believe is right and true and stop trying to be peacefull, selfless, kind and patient and just give into to my baser desires and addictions, and pretty much self-destruct."</font>

Is that what I should do? And will that make the situation any better?
Because if it's not a solution why are you posting this????????

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

i believe they just used religion as an excuse. its more of inequality of everything that prompted them to do this. naturally terrorism would attract these followers and supply them with the means with terror.

also i believe they are just blaming everyone and anyone except themselves. such childish but dangerous people.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Because Yorick the root cause IS religion, maybe not your idea of true religion, undoubtedly a corrupt and distorted view of a great faith, but regardless it was the terrorists religious beliefs that was the root cause.

The terrorist's where fighting for the religious ideals against people whom they see as enemies of there religious beliefs. You look at religion and see the beauty and all things good that come from it, i switch on the news and see the ugliness and the evil done in its name. Two sides of the same coin maybe but the coin is still religion.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

C'mon people, look at what going on here.

Are we using these terrorist attacks to attack each other, or one another's beliefs?

Can anyone really know the mind of a terrorist, but a terrorist?

Of course I can't speak for the religion these people follow. It way say that's it's "ok" to kill people in certain circumstances, or they may have subverted whatever doctrine they follow (if any) to promote their cause of terrorism.They may not have a religion at all.

The New Testament promotes peace and love. So, if anyone promotes violence and hatred in the name of Christianty, of any sort, an "educated" Christian will know it's false.

Let me leave you with this headline to ponder:

Americans kill Walmart employee to get a bargain!
(can't find the article, but I'm you've heard about it by now)

Which is worse?
At least with a terrorist, you know what you're getting.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

I wouldn't go as far as saying religeon is the cause of all problems, but regarding Islam...the MAIN problem is that their holy book can be interpreted in so many different ways, it's not even funny anymore. The salafists and wahabists have their own retarded interpretation of it, with the existance of Al Qaeda as a result. From my own experiences i know that a lot of the muslims condemn their actions just as much as we do, but a silent majority also rejoice in the results of terror such as the attack on the WTC, something i whitnessed with my own eyes when celebrating people came out of their mosques on that dreadful day. Also, the growing anti Semitism in Europe has but one cause, and it starts with the hatespeeches in mosques all across Europe by imams with highly questionable reputations. Why we still allow that tumor to grow within our scociety is beyond me, but i'm sure that one day we will open our eyes and set the record straight.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Religion is a major component in many people's worldview and framework with which they interpret reality. Religion by its own rarely makes people do things like this, there's usually some political, economic or social factors involved, but it also cannot just be rejected as irrelevant.

In the end, it's someones take on religious doctrines that affects their behaviour; religion is not an object capable of harming anyone.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Wellard you haven't answered how such a statement helps the situation. You're not offering a solution.

Again, I repeat, lumping all religions together like that is akin to saying "human beliefs are at fault". Which means a person that believes that the world exists (which is actually a religious belief, not everyone believes the world exists, and some religions say it doesn't) is part of the problem in your book. Do you believe the world exists? Whether you do or not, means YOU are part of the problem according to your logic.

I would suggest that you have "religious beliefs". Everyone does. We call them "worldviews". In rejecting what you're calling "religion" you're having faith that your worldview, your doubts and your beliefs, are truer than those who believe radical Islam is the right way.

Additionally by lumping essentially the whole planet to blame you're not blaming anything, so amorphously huge a thing you have blamed. So I repeat: it doesn't help and only serves to offend those who have nothing to do with the situation.

<font color=yellow>MY religion is just that. PERSONAL. To try and lump me, personally, in with a radical muslim using violence is as offensive as it is nonsensical and illogical.</font>

I suggest that you look carefully at the differences between the minority of Wahabist Muslims who practice terrorism and Sufi Muslims who do not. I suggest you compare them with essentially atheistic pacifist Buddhists who believe the world doesn't exist, and compare them with the Jewish prophets who said the world did exist, and does matter.

I suggest you compare Mother Theresa or members of the Salvation Army who spend their time tirelessly helping people eat, sleep, find peace and healing, with the people who would kill maim and destroy, before offensively lumping them into the same boat in such an offhanded manner.

And before anyone jumps in and says "see! religious discussion causes contention on ironworks", no, accusations and thoughtless generalisations of blame cause contention on Ironworks.

We could, on Ironworks, all unite and feel sympathy for the victims, rage against the perpetrators, and hope that we can change the world for a better place. Instead, one accusatory comment marginalises those of us that have some sort of faith in God, from those who do not, and divides. It's not religion that's the problem here or in Mumbai, it's intolerance and ignorance.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

But if the religion calls for one to train well, execute orders without hesitation, and then allows them to go to paradise for their actions, is it not a religious motive?

Extracts from anti-terrorist doctrine.

"Any efforts to deprogram members of al-Queda
will have to start with terrorists already in custody.
There are about 100 would-be suicide-bombers in jail in Israel.
These individuals were not necessarily trained by al-Queda camps in Afghanistan.
But they share similar ways of thinking.
They believe that they should kill themselves
in the process of killing as many Jews as possible.
And they believe that they will go immediately to Paradise
for doing such a 'holy' act of murder-suicide."

"If Jews in Israel attempted to deprogram Arabs,
they would be seen as the enemy, not as friends.
But when the deprogramming takes place within a Muslim country,
conducted by well-known Muslim leaders,
then the chance of success are much higher."

"...much better effect would be achieved
if one of the people who used to be a true-believer
can be convinced that the religious ideology of the cult was deeply mistaken.
Then this convert will want to save others from making the same mistake.
He or she will be a great help in finding and de-fusing other cult cells.
Working with inside information will always be better
than trying to attack religious cults from outside."

IMHO, it really is religion that keeps this vicious cycle energized.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Well, as long as they think they're oppressed in one form or another iy will be difficult to deprogram them. Some form of acceptable alternative has to be presented.

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

<font color=yellow>If so, then that's an issue with a specific religion, or more precisely one aspect of a specific denomination within a specific religion, not the concept of "religion" per se.</font>

The best solution to the spread of extremist Wahabist Islam is actually religion itself. Either theologically persuading people from violent intepretations to spiritual ones, to become Sufi Muslims, or another religion altogether - like of course Christianity - dedicated to the same creator God.

Christians and Muslims and Jews have more in common than they have differences. And while I may disagree with my Muslim brothers on matters relating to who Jesus is, whether he was killed or not, the validity of the Qu'ran vs the Gospels, etc etc etc, I will defend their right to pray towards Mecca, fast during Ramadan, give to the poor and live lives trying to submit to Allah if they believe that their way is right and true.

The issue in Mumbai appears to be rooted in problems in Kashmir: territory, revenge against perceived injustice etc etc. Problems that would not exist had England not partitioned India: for it is proven that people of different religious persuasion can, have and do live together in harmony, as they have for centuries. If we're going to look at religious wars, why do not look at the more prevalent "religious peace" or do people here only notice when things break down, not when things are working?

Even though Jesus preaches against revenge by turning the other cheek, (the solution to stepping out of a cycle of violence) and tat he forbade his followers to even defend his own life, and even though he willingly went to his death, you would equate his actions with the cycle of violence perpetuated by people who reject the beliefs I just stated.

The logical stretch here is unthinkable.

So, pacifism is to blame for war?
A belief in the sanctity of human life is to blame for murder?
A belief in forgiveness and love is to blame for hatred?

Are we in 1984 where doublespeak reigns and 2+2=5 now? This is crazy talk to lump all religions into the same basket.

<font color=lime>As said, we may as well say "ideas are to blame" so varied are the worlds religions.</font>

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

You are laying some pretty heavy stuff out there Yorick. I think we agree upon your first statement, a single portion of a certain fanatical indoctrination. The rest is way over my religious comprehension. But I do have a quote that I refer to on occasion, and I'm thinking this is such an occasion.

The intellectual founder of Islamism, Sayyid Qutb, wrote in 1957: "In the world there is only one party, the party of Allah; all of the others are parties of Satan and rebellion. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of the rebellion."

Re: Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 80 dead so far hundreds injured
 

Hi Felix. Yes I'm familiar with Qutb, the intellectual father of Bin Laden. He is far from representing all or even a majority of Muslims, let alone all the myriad religions of the world: most of whom would disagree with Qutb. Why should we who think Qutb is incorrect, be apportioned blame?

If you have a cavity in one tooth causing a toothache, do you pull out all your teeth? Or just the one that's rotten?