"Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Found an interesting article here, not sure if you guys saw it already or not: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-mfc/

Basically, apparently there is a very nice widget toolkit called wxWindows that not only works cross-platform, but is very similar in both structure and naming, with MFC. :)

Perhaps it would be possible to slowly, one by one, convert classes to wxWindows (while ensuring that it works), until finally we would be free of MFC (and thus be able to attract more help with the code) AND have a nice Linux version on our hands as well! (Then even cheap people like me could get in on the code, since we could compile for free.)

I'd much rather draw pictures than write code, but that's another story... :D

Anyway, I have recently dived into Linux (still very much a newbie), so... Was thinking that it would be nice to have a Linux version of DC, too!

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

My understanding is that it's basically the same with all of the alternatives to MFC. They all do about the same thing, and in fact most of them are easier to code for than MFCs are. The issue as has been explained to me by Tarlanon et al is that it's an all or nothing proposition because of the base files that are being called for the DC code.

As for linux, welcome, welcome! :) For an immediate DC fix, trying installing Wine (at least version 1.17). This will let you use the editor exactly like on Windows. Unfortunately, I haven't found a way to play any of the games yet. :( but I'm working on it and as soon as I can figure it out, believe me, everyone will hear about it. :D:D:D

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Ha ha... I am still at the level where installing packages are big trouble for me :( (Arrrgh!!)

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Which linux distro are you using? Odds are that Wine will have a pretty detailed explanation of what you need to do to install it.

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Ubuntu (actually, the Helix version of it)...

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

I'm also using Ubuntu (at home, but Red Hat at school). What the heck is 'helix'?

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Helix is a forensic distribution (i.e., it is meant to be booted from a CD, and will not change anything on the computer's hard disk) based on Ubuntu, but I installed it anyway. I am suspecting that a lot of things have been cut out of this particular Ubuntu (because they can write to the disk), which makes things difficult... So I guess I may try just plain ol' Ubuntu :D

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Gotcha. That sounds kind of cool actually. :) It sounds like an interesting way to let people try out linux without fear of screwing up their system.

But, as you point out, there is a lot of stuff that you wouldn't be able to do. You could not save even text documents or graphics files...is it only to the HD, like could I create a text doc and save it to a flash drive?

Anyways, I recommend Ubuntu (I'm still using Hardy Heron - 8.04). As a matter of fact, as soon as I can afford an external hard drive, I will be wiping windows from my main machine and running linux on it. [Don't worry, I won't leave DC. I'm going to run a virtual server and have an instance of XP Pro.]

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Well - you can still mount any drive you like, it just doesn't mount automatically. (Well, if you install it to HD, it does mount that HD, since, well, it is running off of that HD.)

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

So you can still mount any disk and change the data on those? Does it have the 'terminal' the tool that allows command line expressions? It might be a more complete distro than you think. :D

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Yes, it does (I haven't used the windows-like system part very much). The thing is, certain things like compiling (I tried to compile a basic "Hello World" program) and apl-get (or whatever that command is, I forget) seem not to work... I think some things are missing/restricted...

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Much of the appeal to me is that I can do anything I want with it [Linux], it's a nice bonus that the GUI looks familiar, :)

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Yeah, complete control of, like, everything (as long as you remember the command to do it :D )

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

There are very comprehensive, yet accessible guides to Red Hat and Ubuntu by Mark Sorbel(l). they offer how-tos and references. I don't how the library system works in Japan, but our library ordered a copy of the Ubuntu book when I requested it. :D Apparently, the Red Hat book(s) gets a lot of use and they weren't aware that the Ubuntu book was out. Normally, three people have to request a book before it get on the list, which puts it at the very bottom, and the more people who request it, the higher up the list it goes. (Yes, each and every Harry Potter book passed the first debuted at number one on the list.)

But, if you are as lazy as I am about most things, a Google search for "Ubuntu commands" will provide you with a wealth of informational sites.

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Hmm - I'm not only as lazy as you, I'm lazier! :D (Slow and steady wins the race, I always say (starting from today))...

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

I spent a while with Helix today. :) Very, very cool. :D

I've always been interested in forensics, and computers, so why not computer forensics? I'm downloading it as I type. I got to see some of what it can do when it's acting as the OS as well as what it can do when used on an already running OS. :D:D:D

Learning is fun, and learning secret things is even more fun.

While Helix is cool, I and my instructor don't think it's the best choice to be using as a regular OS for a home user. His recomendations were if you want to ease away from the Microsoft apron strings, try Ubuntu, but if you want to use the best linux that you can get without compiling a version yourself, to try Red Hat/fedora/CentOS. :ninjas:

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Actually, what I would like to do is to set up a USB stick to boot up Helix (as per the CD version), but, you know, be on a USB stick. :D

Because of the above limitations, it seems to be quite difficult, though (namely, I cannot install syslinux to my Helix-Ubuntu installation)... (Forensic Linux sounds "safe" to me, as I don't want to destroy my Windows stuff inadvertently (still a Linoob, as I mentioned already :D )).

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

You can't run Helix from a stick. There are a lot of distros that can be run from "pen" drives. (I don't know why they use that term.) Well, I guess I shouldn't say 'can't', you could rework that part of the code in the precompile and compile it yourself.

As for not effecting your hard drive, don't assume that you can't. The first thing I was shown today is that you can and it took the person showing me about 10 seconds in the GUI to change the settings.
As far as I know, there's only one way to really mess up your machine and that's wiping your linux OS while in it. It's hard to do in Ubuntu b/c you have to be an admin to do it and there is no way to log in as an admin in Ubuntu (without seriously hacking it, that is). All of the real damage you can do to Windows, is all of the same damage you can do to Windows from Windows - deleting, overwriting, etc.

If you've isntalled Ubuntu on your hard drive, you can just unmount the Windows drive...then Ubuntu wouldn't see it.

Anyways, there are literally hundreds of distributions of linux. Check out a site called distro watch to learn about the various flavors. You may find one or several that are exactly what you're looking for.

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

You can't log in as root in Ubuntu? You can't just use a su command to become root?

(As for Helix not running on USB - aw, fooey...)

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

You can sudo in Ubuntu, but you have to change security settings in a text file hidden away somewhere before you can su (at least on 7.10 and 8.04).

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Really?! Chee... Almost everything you can do in linux seems to require su... :( (The Helix version of Ubuntu, installed to HD, seemed to su/sudo fine.)

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Well, I might be remembering wrong. I am seriously lacking in the sleep department and that does tend to effect my memory as well as my processing skills. :)

Okay, you're totally right. Apparently I had disabled root (on purpose as I recall), so of course it wouldn't let me 'su'. :D I'm such an idiot sometimes.

I'm having real trouble with my main box, so I've decided to make the switch to linux a lot quicker than I had planned, like probably this morning. :D

I'm going to use a distro called 'aloofix'. It is is super lightweight - only 45 MB installed. I will then run VMWare on top of it, so I will still have a Windows install (in addition to Server 2003), I will just be able to manage it a lot better and filter my internet connection through linux before running it into windows. :) Plus, anything goes wrong with Windows, just reload. :D

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

VMWare - did you buy VMWare? Or is there a free Linux version floating around? :D

I still like my Windows machine, and can't give it up just yet ;)

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

VMWare came to me through Ubuntu. It has a client version preloaded. Though I've used the server version for Windows quite extensively running a virtual 5 server LAN for 3 months. I also have used Microsoft's Virtual PC running a server an client for a couple of months. VMWare is very good and easy to manage, Virtual PC is okay for servers and pretty good for clients, but only if they're Windows. You can run some linux distros in VPC but not officially, and you can't run it on linux. :(

When I first started using VMWare through Ubuntu, I registered with them and all that good stuff and after a month got an offer from them to try the server software for free, which I ignored and then like a month they sent me a link to to the full version for free. I didn't ask for it, they just did it. I hope they do it again. If not, I can get it from school. :D

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Ha ha, I see... Very generous of them (and in line with the Linux GNU philosophy!)...

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

From my experience so far trying different distros out I believe your instructor is right. If you are installing to the HD and making it your primary OS you definitely want one that you compiled yourself. Compiled on the same system you plan to boot and run it from. Because then it is basically adapted or customized to fit your system specs perfectly.

Out of those three best you recommended manikus which one would you say is the most intuitive for someone accustumed to Windows but also very familiar with DOS and command line utils and operations? Which one lends itself the most to understanding for someone who has mastered x86 OS's but is quite new to Linux?

I think it would be cool if something like FreeDos were to develop their OS to the point that it could do everything leading 32bit OS's can do. Or if there were a DOS interface for Linux that allowed me to use DOS commands and have them translate to Linux commands behind the scenes and have the command line shell show DOS style file management and DOS style paths instead of that confusing Unix gibberish. ;)

BTW: I had Ubuntu installed on a separate partition for a while and was using it as my primary OS while I experimented with installing different customized XP installations on my NTFS partitions.

I was having a big time until the MBR on my Linux partitions got messed up and I could no longer access it. I couldn't even get partition magic or any other partitioner to work with it or repair it or even delete it.

I ended up doing it from DOS with an old DOS version of Partition Magic. ;) DOS is definately my choice of OS, always was and always will be. But I guess times have changed and I just have to accept it. DOS is obsolete as a primary OS. But at least I can still boot to DOS 7.1 from USB or a separate partition and play my old DOS games in it or write a small program in QBASIC just for fun. Or I could load up the old WWIV bbs software and play around with that.

Anyway, by then I had found the perfect minimalist XP distro for me and had it set up already on my NTFS partitions when the Linux partitions died so I just reclaimed the space I had given to Linux and created a bunch of NTFS partitions to use as storage and organization of game materials like graphics, sounds, intaller packages, archives, etc.

I will probably still go back to Linux eventually but right now I would rather spend the time working on DC stuff and other projects than learning a new OS. I need productivity more than anything right now. And with my new super fast super small version of XP [mostly using non-microsoft utils: agent ransack instead of indexing/ms file search for example] and my custom partition scheme I have just what I need to achieve that.

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Red Hat is an enterprise OS - there's a corporation behind it so it works very, very well. :) But, it's not free. (I got it from a book that I mentioned earlier in the thread - Mark Sorbel's Practical Guide to Red Hat.) Fedora is the early but stable beta of Red Hat. It is free but will have some bugs But, it will also have features that Red Hat doesn't.
And then there is CentOS. :D This is the one that I recommend. CentOS = Red Hat - proprietary images.
CentOS is great and a new distro typically comes out 3 to 6 months after a new Red Hat distro. And, of course, CentOS is free. A nice advantage to this one is that all of the literature for Red Hat works exactly the same, and there are a lot of good books and tuts, how-tos, etc for Red Hat.

Unlike Windows, you don't need a GUI for linux. Everything can be done with the CLI.
Anything you can do in Dos, you can do in linux. Seriously. I'm sure I mentioned this before, but in the beginning, there was the almighty UNIX, and all was good. :) But, then someone wanted to make money by controlling access to the code, so they were hired by IBM to create a proprietary operating system. This was Bill Gates and his little start-up called MicroSoft. He would take the UNIX and backwards engineer some of it and emulate other bits, but ignore lots of it. He would change slightly some of the command names to keep from being sued by AT&T. Eventually, Steve Jobs little company called Apple would introduce a GUI built on top of the CLI in such a way that the user never need look at the CLI again. Then for years MicroSoft and Apple war over who can do what with the GUI and eventually claiming to be very different, we arrive at the present day with GUIs that are 99% the same in their functionality.
Meanwhile, a couple of decades earlier, a young man by the name of Linus Torvald, takes a look at the now open-sourced UNIX and writes his own kernel and calls it linux. He also open sources and future users will recreate the GUI of MicroSoft and Apple, but will also continue to develop the CLI to be more like UNIX.
So, there you have it. If you install CentOS, you can choose to do it in 'text mode' and always work in a command line environment. :D:D:D
As for the directory stucture of linux, it's the same as UNIX. Really the only difference from MS is that it's a logical anchored system (root) versus a physical anchored system (c:). That and it uses slashes that go the other way. ;)

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

If I was as smart as Linus (and about his age), I could have called it Edix! :(

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Linus Torvald is just a little older than I am, but I wager a lot smarter. :)

He's from Finland, but now lives in Portland, OR, USA. :) Coincidentally, so do I. :D:D:D

I think when I present my capstone in a couple of months, I will invite him to come.

Incidentally, if I were 12 times smarter and I had created linux, it would have sounded silly - erix.

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Ha ha... Edix sounds kind of silly, too (then people would say, "Oh, you're that famous - Edie guy!).

Perhaps it was for the best that Linus made Linux...

Ah, from Lapland, eh? He must have magicked his system then!

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Is there a person, or hopefully group that is already actively working on porting DC to Linux? If so I wish to contact them and join in helping with the code to make it happen. From the Linux port of DC I should be able to create another port of DC to my operating system of choice, which is MorphOS (which is based on and mostly compatible with the AmigaOS).

I am new here, so if this has already been discussed and the group can be found elsewhere on this site, forgive me for not finding it myself first.

Edit: I just purchased a new development environment suite of programs for my MorphOS computer and would be pleased to get started in using it to work on porting DC to MorphOS. MorphOS has many similarities to Linux, but it is tiny by comparison and lightning fast on very little power. I am currently running it on a 400MHz PPC SOC computer that uses only 1 watt for the CPU and about 10 watts or less for the entire computer with Radeon graphics card.

P.S. I think it would have been Ernix, which is not as bad as Erix. ;-)

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

I'm glad to see you found your way to the forums. :)

LurchBrick has mentioned an attempt, but he may have given up on it as I think he was finding it easier to write a new engine that take out MFCs. Other folks pop in from time to time with the desire to make DC platform independent, but I'm guessing that after they discover how hard it is, or more precisely how hard they think it will be (whether or not it's true) they move on to another program.

Officially, there is no current support for this kind of move. Our focus is getting version 1.0 out the door. And I'll be the first to admit that we're having a heck of a time getting that done and I realize that we might have more of a chance if MFCs weren't involved, but the task is so large, it seems completely unreasonable to put my meager resouces into that. Like I said, taht is the official stance.
Personally, I think it would be great to port this thing to Linux (I don't know enough about MorphOS to comment on it). I'll help where I can, but most of the coding is why beyond my ability, so I'm mostly a playtester. :D

And as for wondering if this topic has already come up, it has. :) But, I think it is definitely worth talking about again. In fact the more we talk about it, the more likely it is to happen. And, if it does happen, I'm ready to manage the new DC project (start up a new project on SourceForge, or fork our current project).

In fact I would go so far as to say if we can get enough interest, i.e. I think we might be able to port DC to linux (or hopefully platform-independent), I can start advertising for coders to help out. :D:D:D

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

But, if one would attempt a move to Linux (or just platform independence) on their own and succeed - that would be just peachy :) Anyone know more about the "easy" way to port to Linux (that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread)?

Actually, anyone know how to just compile the code on Linux anyway? :D I have been away from compiling code for sooo long that I just don't remember anything...

Like, how would I try to compile DC code with the extra wxWindows libraries needed to do the "easy" port to Linux?

And just how many pages of code are there for DC, anyway?

(Having Linux would allow me to compile C finally! I don't have a compiler for Windows, which is why I have forgotten all about compilers...)

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

I compile packages from code all the time in Ubuntu, and it's super easy. I don't know if DC would be as easy, but how hard could it be? :)

How many pages of code? I would estimate it in the 4000 to 6000 page range. That's why it's such a big deal to replace the MFCs I should mention that Richard et al included a lot of notes (as they should have) so as to take up maybe a third of the above number. :)

I will say that someone has ported the GPDL engine to GNU/Linux. I believe he thinks he can port the whole thing...but I don't believe he has realized that GPDL does not rely on MFCs the way that the rest of the code does. Still, I will not try to dissuade him. :ninjas:

Edited to add: I've just contacted the individual mentioned above and informed him about these forums and the interested parties here - maybe he can find some help. I also offered him my continued help, whatever form this takes.

If interested, I can make available the source for GNU/linux and instructions on how to compile and install.

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Wow, someone already did the GPDL engine part? That's great! :D Maybe tell him about the wxWindows thing to help with the rest of it, if it is useful and makes things easier...

Hmm... 4000 to 6000 pages? Eeeeep!...

(As for the source for GNU/Linux - this isn't available at SourceForge? I would like to know how to compile/install in general, that kind of thing, though.)

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

The source will be available at SourceForge, but he couldn't put it up b/c he's not a project member, and I can't put it up right now b/c I lost all of that stuff in the crash (source, program to access source, public and private keys for encryption and authentication). :(
But, I do have a copy of the source that he sent me as well as his instructions on how to compile, which are very basic and easy to follow.

As for the library he used, it's the gnulib. I know nothing about this library, so I don't know if it's capable of replacing MFCs, and I don't know if he's committed to continue using that library whether it is or isn't capable of the replacement. I do believe he used it to provide maximum portability. We're not just talking the obvious GNU and linux, the BSD family, Solaris, Macintosh and cygwin. :D Do you know how awesome it would be to make Dungeon Craft available for all of those platforms? :D:D:D

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

Very basic and easy sounds great to me! (Program to access source, public and private keys, encruption and authentication sound very bad... :( )

But yeah, DC for all those platforms would be great! It would also be a good big step towards finding lots more DC enthusiasts who would love to help with the coding, the graphics, and the games! :D

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

I agree. :)

As for all of the bad sounding stuff...it will be a bit of work to get all of that back, involving someone at SourceForge to assist in resetting the keys. (I can reset my keys on my own, but they need to have a copy of my public key.) The same problem goes for updating the official web page. :( These are not impossible to overcome, just time consuming and a bit on the boring side. ;)

This is how easy it is to compile ~

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

That's all? And then we can run DC? :D

Keys and such sound messy and bad... It's quite easy to update my own web page (never anything to do with keys), so... :)

Re: "Easy" way to remove MFC-dependence AND port to Linux?!
 

SF uses keys instead of a login and password because they are impossible to crack and extremely (almost impossible) hard to spoof.

The reason compiling is so easy in linux compared to Windows is b/c linux has a compiler built into the command line interface. While easier to compile, more code would actually need to be written to compile the program to take care of dependencies and compile the modules in the right order, etc.