This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

full article through the link. (well actually the link apparently no longer led to where it used to, so I removed it. Cerek posted the complete story on page 3)

Sad thing is, he was old enough to know better

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

LOL! Love it.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

<font color="plum">What an idiot. Pulling a stupid prank that leads to felony charges. Welcome to the Real World, doofus. :rolleyes:</font>

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Wow, ..little passion creeping in there Cerek?

Of course, I do agree.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

One of my favorite lines from Rush...

"When we are young,
learning that we're only immortal
for a limited time...."

Three Rivers is just a bit south of here... hopefully it doesn't rub off or migrate north ;)

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

<font color="plum">This 20-year old is facing felony charges because he thought it would be "cool" to act like the Joker. Unfortunately, in the USA, conviction of a felony offense automatically imposes several restrictions on the individual.

For example - if convicted - some of the restrictions this person will face include:

1. Losing his right to vote or ever hold public office.
2. Losing the right to leave the country or state of residence.
3. Losing the right to own a firearm.
4. Losing the right to be certified in several different fields of employment, including (but not limited to) attorney, electrician, plumber, contractor, doctor, nurse, physical therapy, and even insurance salesman.
5. Being denied housing in various apartment complexes (varies among different housing units).

Years ago, I read about a judge handing down sentencing on two juveniles who had decided to steal a car one weekend and go for a joyride. Of course, it didn't take long for them to get caught. After finding the juveniles guilty, the judge read a list of the things they would no longer be allowed to do because of their felony conviction. He summed it up by expressing disappointment and sorrow that their lives would be so much more limited now because of one bad decision made at a young age. The same thing applies to this boy. That is why I can't see anything humorous or amusing in this story.

He is 20 years old and has severely limited his options in life through one act of stupidity. He may eventually overcome the restrictions placed on his life. Not all of the consequences listed are permanent. But he will face an uphill battle and no matter what he accomplishes, the stigma of the felony conviction will always be hanging around in the background. The other possibility is that he won't overcome the obstacles he has now placed in his life and will spiral down into a series of continued hardships because of his actions. All because he didn't take the time to consider the real life consequences of acting like a character in a movie.

I do feel sorry for him, but he brought it on himself. :sad:</font>

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

And I feel like the guy was just doing a little RPing :(

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

<font color="plum">A little RPing with some very serious real life consequences. Hence my comment, "Welcome to the Real World".

This is one problem with movies, games and TV shows. They don't reflect the actual consequences characters face for the actions they take, so kids think they can do what they want and not get in trouble. Unfortunately, that is NOT the way it works in real life.

This "joker" may have considered his actions to be a harmless prank, but he attempted to steal items that didn't belong to him and damaged or destroyed some in the process. That is not harmless nor is it a prank. As he discovered, it is a felony offense that carries very serious consequences. Worst case scenario is that he could possibly spend 2-3 years of his life in a federal prison because of his "RPing". Prisons don't separate prisoners based on the severity of their crimes. They don't have a wing for "young kids who did something stupid" and another wing for "hardcore murderers". They all go in together.

As I said before, there is nothing funny, humorous, amusing or clever about his actions. And what he did is certainly nothing to admire or LOL about. :sad:</font>

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

In your opinion, of course. I find it funny, as did the OP. Sometimes you have to sit back and not take things so seriously, I mean come on, he wasn't slitting people's lips with a knife like in the movie. He dressed up as a character, stole some posters, all the while in joker getup, which was indeed an obvious prank. Was he an idiot to push it? Yes. But I doubt that he will go down for this, I wouldn't prosecute someone that is in fact, promoting my movie even if it was a stupid thing to do. I can bet that the people at DC comics got a good chuckle out of this. Even if he is prosecuted and jailed (which he will most likely just be fined) I will still shake my head and laugh as will countless others.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

I'm in between. I do find it to be somewhat funny and humorous, but like Cerek said, he's crossed a major adult line that will stick with him for years. That whole "cause and effect" thing is one that challenges many people today... many people of all ages.

And it's not the movie studio that's going to be prosecuting. It will be the movie theatre (thank you for destroying my decorations? I don't think so) or the city itself. The movie company is about as far removed from this action as the providers of water to irrigate fields are from that scalding hot coffee at McDonalds... a different planet entirely.

I will also shake my head and probably laugh, but inside that head, thoughts will be going "gods, don't let my kids be this stupid"....

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Right, I agree. I am well aware it's the theatre that will be prosecuting, but I can bet that the people at DC laughed about what people do with their characters and how much the movie has made an impression. Of course he's an idiot (or even a joker :)) for thinking he'd get away with it.

I just don't feel there's a need to inject this sobering line about how there's no humour in it at all, and how felonies aren't funny. That's not the point. He of all people is paying for it now, and probably regretting what he did. Whether he gets a slap on the wrist or a hefty penalty is his business and his burden. It does not escape the fact that it is funny to hear about and probably funnier to witness - when this happend even the news channels played this story under their funny segments and talk show hosts used it in their monologues to make people laugh.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Well, I'll speak for myself on how I felt about it. To a degree it was slightly humorous, but moreso I found it kind of sad. At 20, he should have known better. And Bungleau's got it right, it's a legal issue not a civil issue, so the kids going to court. And you can bet he'll owe for the damage he caused in the process.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Just when I thought I was having a break from studying for my midterms... LOL

Initially they were probably thinking that since they are young, they will only get slaps on the wrist... but ignorance of the law excuses no one from compliance therewith.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

<font color="plum">Stealing property is not a prank, it is a crime. The fact that he dressed like a movie character doesn't make his actions any less illegal nor any more humorous.

If he wanted to pull an RP prank, he could have dressed up and acted out in the lobby without stealing property. It would have still been rather foolish, but at least he wouldn't have broken any laws.

The fact you view these actions as a funny prank mirrors exactly what is wrong with the situation - that people view felony theft as "harmless" because of what was taken.

Why so serious? Because some members of our culture desperately need a healthy dose of reality. This is no funnier than the group sabotaging the support forum in order to trigger seizures among the members. Actions like these are not funny, they are criminal. As for sitting back and lightening up, that's good therapy when things are happening beyond your control - NOT when your OWN actions cause harm to others. That's when it's time to sit back and actually think about why your actions were wrong and what can be done to correct the grievance you have caused. It is also time for others to reflect on the consequences as well and - if they are wise - learn from the mistakes of others instead of laughing them off.

BTW, there is nothing in the OP to indicate <font color="yellow">FirestormAlpha</font> thought the incident was funny. </font>

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Dressing as Joker in public where everybody will notice you and then try stealing something. Either he's a lunatic or a complete moron.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Sums it up just right for me. :thumbsup:

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

But you see this is where the danger lies. This guy is obviously no hardened criminal. We cannot nab all these acts with the same brush, else we become a society of black and white. There are shades of grey, and that is absolute. I feel like you strongly disagree with his actions, I too feel like he's a fool, but a fool can be funny. This is why judges are human rather than machines who decide one of two outcomes.

When we color our objectivity with our own personal beliefs, morales and conditioning we begin to impose them upon situations, almost instantly resulting in a set judgment. The fact still remains that this was comical, and, as much as you'd like others to see it from your personal perspective, the headlines still read like "Joker steals posters" rather than "Kid commits theft". It's eyecatching, mindboggling, interesting and of course, funny.

I've already acknowledged the facts, he messed up, and I totally agree he should have acted out in the lobby because then it would have been truly harmless. This guy would do well in an theme park on the Batman ride where The Joker appears or something. Maybe he'll get a job offer from all this. Hell, Paris Hilton got publicity from a sex tape and a few minutes in jail. Thus, the unpredictability within these shades of grey.

The irony of the threads title "This city deserves a better class of criminal" struck me as humourous, since no city would ideally want any class of criminal, and that Firestorm was possibly shaking his head and chuckling at the idiocy of it all saying "we need a better criminal than this" lol. The OP then stated he found it slightly humourous. *shrug*

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

I took the thread title directly from "The Dark Knight" IIRC it was one of Heath's lines. Overall though, I'd prefer that this thread not go the way of debating moral absolutes vs. moral relativity. I personally believe in moral absolutes. Though there are some areas that are a little tough to hash out. To say there are no absolutes, is itself an absolute statement, thereby negating itself.

If you want to turn this into a debate, I'm not gonna raise a fuss, but I'll stay out of it. I'm not really the best at curbing my emotional responses.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Gods. I just wrote multiple pages responding on this, and I think it's beating a dead horse. Let me sum up:

1. It's not obvious that he's a hardened criminal or not. Sorry... not enough information available. We don't even know if he's an axe murderer or child rapist. However, theft isn't in the same category as those crimes.
   
2. He committed an illegal act. Whether on his own, or whether fueled by outside substances (alcohol, peer pressure, whatever), it was illegal. And stupid.
   
3. The consequences of that act will stick with him for life, and may eliminate some possible futures for him.
   
4. To Cerek's point, he undoubtedly didn't realize that it would stick with him for life. Ignorance of the long-term consequences of one's actions is a sad thing, and is far too prevalent today.

Meh. Time to go get some M&Ms at the cafe...

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Hmm, I'm not really up for a long post today, but I'll admit to finding it amusing. The judicial response, however, I do not...

I thank my lucky stars the judicial system in Finland uses a little common sense in passing judgement...the "slap on the wrists" is much more common in obvious "prank" situations here. Sure, you'll end up paying for what you've done, and then some, but you don't get your whole life screwed up because of some lame stunt you've pulled as a dumb teenager.

I've done some pretty stupid things growing up, and with a system like the states, I'd probably be screwed for life(though I suppose growing up knowing what will happen, might have discouraged from doing things...who knows). However, most of the time the police have just gotten a chuckle, then driven me home and I get punished at home, and I reckon I've turned up just fine without excessive court actions.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

You pretty much summed up my ideas on this, nice post!

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

<font color="plum">First of all, it is the victim of the crime who decides whether or not to press charges - in this case, the theater owner. Once he/she does decide to press charges, the police don't have the option of deciding to charge a lesser offense. They have to charge the criminal according to the laws and rules on the books. Lawyers can attempt to plea bargain the charge down to a lesser offence and this is often done to avoid the time and cost of trial. The two attorneys meet and the defendent basically agrees to plead guilty to a reduced charge to avoid the trail.

As for the judge making a determination in the grey area, they have some latitude for doing that, based on the charge. But when the charge is a felony offense (rather than a misdemeanor), the judge has fewer options to exercise alternative punishments. I personally was surprised to read the theft was considered a felony, but that is exactly why I don't think it is funny. Felony charges are very serious. If it had been a misdemeanor charge, I would probably share <font color="yellow">SpiritWarriors</font> view regarding the situation. It would have been a foolish prank that got the guy more trouble than he expected, but not enough to seriously affect his future. A felony charge is much different, regardless of the actual punishment received. Every job application asks if the person has been convicted of a felony offense. If Yes, explain what happened. If this "joker" is found guilty of the felony offense, it will literally follow him the rest of his life because he will have to list the guilty charge and explain the situation behind it. And while some employers might view it as a stupid teenage prank, many others will be more concerned that he was convicted of felony theft and will decline his application on that basis - which they have a right to do.

Like I said at the beginning, this guy's life has suddenly become much more limited because of a stupid decision he made.</font>

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

<font color="plum">Here is another example to illustrate why I don't find humor in these situations.

Last year, one of our local high schools recieved a series of bomb threats within a two week period. This, of course, was very big news in our little rural town. The elementary school also happens to be on the same campus area, so both school had to be completely evacuated while police searched the buildings - a process that took 3-4 hours each time. They also had to call in bomb-sniffing dogs. Our town is too small to have that kind of resource, so the dogs had to be brought in from a town over 70 miles away. Another serious waste of police time and resources. Two teens were eventually caught and charged with the crimes. Making a bomb threat is also a felony offense, so they are facing a lot of the same limitations the "joker" is facing with the exception that bomb threats are probably considered even more serious than felony theft.

To make the situation even worse, during the period of bomb threats against the school, a worker in the day care center decided to pull a joke on her coworkers and call a bomb threat in herself. She went into the back of the day care and dialed their number. When her coworkers up front answered the phone, she told them there was a bomb in the building. She just meant it as an innocent joke, but the law doesn't view it that way. The day care had to be evacuated and the building had to be searched. Even though she finally admitted it was just a prank, the police are obligated to search the building just to make sure.

The sheriff expressed his own disappointment that the coworker had made such a stupid mistake. It was pretty clear she meant no real harm. The police, lawyers and judge MUST act according to the law and the law does not differentiate between "harmless prank" and "actual offense". In the letter of the law, committing the act IS an actual offense - period. So two teens and a formerly good day care worker are now facing some serious prison time all because they thought it would be "funny" to call in bomb threats.

That is why I say a lot of culture needs a strong dose of reality. Unfortunately, when it happens, it is often a much stronger dose than they anticipated.</font>

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

<font color="cyan">If he gets prosecuted for that, it's just ridiculous. The owners of the cinema should drop all charges and just see the funny side.

Christ, america is stupidly strict lol. </font>

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

At this point, we really don't know what "that" is.

It could be just taking a stack of posters off a pile (no damage) or off a wall (minor damage). It could also be breaking display cases in order to get at the posters or other items inside (serious damage), or breaking actual displays and memorabilia (major damage).

At which point is it no longer funny?

There are some places where "funny" doesn't exist. Cerek mentioned bomb threats. Crying "Fire!" in a crowded place falls into the same category.

I've related the story before of a friend of mine going across customs and when asked if he had anything to declare, queried another friend to ask if he thought that included the M-16 broken down in the trunk.

Customs was not amused, and went looking for the M-16. And they can disassemble your vehicle while doing so without a second thought.

I fly a lot... and inside (and outside) the US, joking doesn't exist when going through security. If you don't believe, me, joke that you've got a bomb with you. They'll find it really funny ;)

Now, stealing and vandalism in a movie theater are nowhere near the same level as crossing borders or getting into airplanes. I just offer the latter as proof that "funny" has limits.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

<font color="plum">You're absolutely right, <font color="cyan">Lavindathar</font>. The cinema should send the message that it's ok for people to damage and steal their property - as long as they dress up like comic character first. :rolleyes:

The fact that the offenses qualify as felonies indicate that it was more than just grabbing a poster off the counter. A felony means there was more serious damage down in the act. But hey, let's just overlook all that and let the guy slide because he dressed up funny.

As for your comment about America, that's how <font color="yellow">flame wars</font> get started. I would have expected better from you.</font>

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

<font color="plum">Here is a more complete copy of the article about the Joker incident. I found it on cnn.com. Note that police expect him to be charged with theft and malevolent destruction of property. It doesn't detail what property was destroyed, but that is what makes his actions a felony charge instead of a misdemeanor.

He was also being restrained by several cinema employees, so obviously he did more than try to grab a couple of posters.</font>

<font color="white">
Thief Disguised as the Joker Arrested for Stealing "The Dark Night" Posters-

A man was arrested in Michigan for trying to steal posters, as well as some other items related to the movie "Batman: The Dark Night".

The police arrested the 20-year-old Spencer Taylor when he attempted to steal items related to new Batman movie from a cinema lobby being disguised as the Joker.

Three Rivers Detective, Mike Mohney, outlined that he expects Taylor to be charged with theft and malevolent destruction of property.

Detective Mohney said that early July 28 police officers were informed about the thief who entered the Three Rivers 6 theatre. When arrived police found theatre's employees holding back a man in a purple suit, green wig and face paint, resembling Batman's enemy from "The Dark Night".

Spencer Taylor will hear his sentence on August 5 in St Joseph County District Court.

Source: Associated Press</font>

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Well, you certainly do make good points, Cerek! I haven't studied law, in school or otherwise, so I can't say I know for sure what all the terms mean, but I guess felony definately makes it worse for the poor guy. Though if he's tried stealing stuff other than posters, than he's kinda crossing the line between a prank and just plain daylight robbery anyway...posters are pieces of paper, after all, while the other "goods" may actually be of real value. Can't really make the call without knowing the specifics, and even than it's a matter of opinion, of course..

Anyhow, referring to your example of bomb threats, it just never ceases to amaze me how tastless some people can be. I can't imagine how anyone could find a bomb threat amusing, particularily so with all the news coming in from the middle-east and other areas of conflict. We had a few bomb threats in high school as well, though I'm not sure if the idiots calling them in were ever caught..Any prank that causes panic in people, or otherwise potentially threatens them, automatically goes into the "tasteless and absurd" category in my book.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Just want to point some small details out.

The bomb threat illustrations were Bungleau's not Cerek's.

And to Raistlin's comment "posters are pieces of paper"

So is cash. And theatre prints of posters can potentially be worth a bit of money.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

If you don't punish someone saying that what he stole isn't worth much, it would encourage others to steal as well, steal things that are worth more.

Every punishment or the lack of punishment sends a message to others.

How about the guy who sends him to prison dresses up as batman? Then the thief should go there willingly and just see the funny side.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Not sure if Bungleau has made a bomb-related post earlier(too tired to look), but atleast Cerek made the most recent :P

And well, of course, everythings worth something..If he's stealing posters by the armfull, then it starts to look like something other than a prank, but one poster will hardly put the theatre out of business. Of course some counteraction has to be made, but I think the point was that if indeed all he'd have stolen was a poster, then is the rest of his life worth ruining over a 10$ piece of paper? Thats how I understood it anyway.

I'll say it again though, I'm fairly clueless on the details, so I'm just dishing out opinions. ;)

Edit: Haha, talk about irony ZFR :D I reckon he wouldn't find the "role playing" as funny at that point.. :p

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Cerek raised the bombs before I did, I believe... I referenced him in my last "I'm done with this" post ;)

For those outside the US, part of the difference between a felony and misdemeanor *can* be the monetary amount involved. Steal $50, it might be a misdemeanor. Steal $1000, it might be a felony. I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, and neither do I feel like googling the differences right now. So if theft and vandalism are being upped to felony status, it's more than just picking up a poster or two.

The last few times I've been in movie theaters, all the movie posters have been in display cases. After getting in to get the poster, the display case may no longer be in the best of shape. That may be where the bump-up in dollar amount to a felony comes from, but I haven't seen any more details on it yet.

He's supposed to be arraigned in a couple of weeks... if this has died down by then, it might come back to life.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

<font color="plum">That's a very good point, <font color="mint">Bungleau</font>. Since this was a 6-screen cinema, I suspect all the posters were likely in display cases there as well, which meant the "Joker" had to break the display cases to get the poster. If you look at the article I posted, the charges police expect him to face are theft and malevolent destruction of property. It doesn't tell us exactly WHAT property was destroyed, but it's a good assumption to believe it included the display cases, which can be quite expensive. The "malevolent destruction of property" is obviously what raises the charges to felony status. The "malevolence" could based on the value of the property destroyed or the amount of property damaged. Either way, that is what raised this past the "prank" status and elevated to criminal conduct.</font>

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

<font color="cyan">Firstly Cerek, this topic is very one sided.

For the simple fact that to the letter of the law, this man is wrong. Therefore every point you make is valid, because from a legal standpoint, you're quite correct.

The <i>real</i> debate we are having here is an opinionated one regarding common sense, and whether this guy should be punished.

And Bung, if he broke cases, yes, pay for them, and then its no longer funny.

If he's creeping around as the joker, all the guests watching him and laughing, and slowly taking posters off a wall, with everone watching/laughing, then it's comical and he shouldn't be charged.

And the airport thing is totally ridiculous to bring up here, shouting anything about bombs/guns in an airport is like shit-hot serious.

Stealing a poster is different :P And who says he stole it? Did he leave the cinema with it?

Anyway, it's late, and not up for flaming. But just think it should be a slap on the wrist and hes told to clean the cinema for a week.</font>

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

<font color="cyan">So is money ;)</font>

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Lavindathar, Cerek posted the complete article on page 3, you may want to read it.

As to whether he should be punished, there is no question. Yes, he should be punished in some way, but the real question becomes to what degree. That is something that the judge will decide. Of course, that is assuming the jury finds him guilty. I'm not sure how they couldn't, but things happen.

strike that, apparently he's already been convicted, as in the last line of the article he gets to face sentencing on Aug. 5th

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

I think a lot of it is gonna be what his track record is. If he has done stuff in the past, they'll probably punish him pretty harsh. If it's his first time doing something, then they'll probably be pretty lenient. I know it's possible, cause that kinda happened to me. I got drunk one night and assaulted a police officer, but they let me off pretty easy. Just a fine, community service (which I guess ultimately got dropped, cause I never did it,) and probation for 2 years. I didn't have any record before that. I got drunk because of severe depression due to my step father dying. So the judge understood there were extenuating circumstances. Could be the same with this guy. Unless he hurt someone, I really doubt they'll do too much.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot to add in that although my "crime" initially was viewed as a felony, about 2 years later when the FBI came looking for me to find out why I wasn't doing community service, they changed the felony down to a misdeamonor. I haven't had the "stigma" that others have had with a felony.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

I'm mostly ignorant of what most crimes are categorized as, so for the sake of comparison may I ask, is assaulting an officer of the law regarded as a felony? It sounds like it would be, but I don't have that knowledge.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

There are shades of grey, but this is not one of them.

Steal property = felony.
Felony = not funny.

Cerek doesn't find it funny because he has EMPATHY for the guy. Similarly he didn't find the Epileptic issue funny because he also had empathy for the victims.

You can only find humor in other peoples lives being ruined if you laugh AT the people involved, without empathy, (unless you yourself have gone through the situation and are laughing WITH them at yourself.)

I'm not seeing much empathy in laughing for an idiot who's most probably not laughing now.

Re: This city deserves a better class of criminal...
 

Hopefully that will be the case.