From AAP today:

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>The hardline Palestinian Islamic movement Hamas, which has killed at least 25 Israelis in less than 24 hours, has enough suicide bombers to last another 20 years, a senior Hamas leader said.

"We have the means to resist and offer up martyrs for another 20 years," Khaled Meshaal, the group's political leader, said at a Palestinian refugee camp in a suburb of Damascus.

"At the final count, we will be victors, because the enemy cannot stand the losses," he said at an "iftar", the meal which breaks the dawn-to-dusk fast during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

"Our goal is to make the cost of the occupation too high for the occupier," he said.

Meshaal blasted Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's condemnation of the suicide attacks in Jerusalem and the northern city of Haifa that killed at least 24 Israelis and also left at least 210 wounded.

A 25th Israeli was gunned down in the Gaza Strip.

"The resistance is not protected, because others (Palestinians) destroy what it does through their cooperation (with Israel). But we will not give in and we will pursue resistance," he said.

He vowed Hamas "would overcome pressure" from the Palestinian Authority.

"Resistance is the shortest path to freedom. Negotiations and compromise lead to the loss of rights," he said. "We will liberate Palestine, all of Palestine. We will recover Jerusalem. It is not a dream. It is reality."

Meshaal said the suicide operations are not planned from abroad. "The mujahideen (Islamic warriors) train, organise and execute their operations on the field of battle," he insisted.<hr></blockquote>

Yasser Arafat condemns it. The Qu'ran condemns it. Israel resort to violence to contain it. Mothers lose their matyred children. The global community are in the middle of a war to stop situations like this.

Why blow up 25 civilians and commit suicide? Imagine what such conviction, determination and belief could achieve if aimed toward constructive rather than destructive ends.

Yet again the dark path is taken. :(

"Occupation"
"Liberate all of Palestine....recover Jerusalem"
"Negotiations and compromise lead to the loss of rights"

These words show the mentality of refusing to acknowledge Israels right to exist as a nation, and that these people cannot be reasoned with. No middle ground. No cohabitation.

Where do the Israelis go when the "cost of occupation" is decided to be too high?

Back to Germany and Russia? To America? England?

This is insanity. It is a tiny stretch of land amidst a very large Arabic world. We Australians are not complaining about Arnhemland being given back to Aboriginies. Arnhemland is larger than Israel, more fertile than Israel, and almost totally autonomous. No outsider can set foot in there without permission.

The United Nations created Israel after the horrific events of World War Two.

The United Nations have renounced terrorism as a means to achieving political ends.

The United Nations under Kofi Annan encourage "negotiation and compromise" as a means to obtaining peace

Don't misunderstand what I am about to say, because I condemn terrorism unreservedly...... but..... almost all freedoms, as someone pointed out in another thread, have been won through bloodshed. Terrorists ARE freedom fighters, whether we consider their actions justified or not.
For example, in America it was not just peaceful protest that got human rights for black Americans, but also violence.... In India, it was not only peaceful protest that won freedon from British rule, but also violence....
I don't approve of violence. Too many get killed who do not deserve it. But I have a little understanding, I think, of the motivation for terrorism. It is a natural human desire for freedom and security and justice.
We will never get rid of terrorists until we get rid of the injustices that cause and perpetuate it.

Hey, Yorick? Have you got up early? Or have you not yet gone to bed? Its 3.50am here.....
G'night!

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
We will never get rid of terrorists until we get rid of the injustices that cause and perpetuate it.<hr></blockquote>

Then we will never get rid of terrorism. Injustices are often subjective, and committed no matter which side is taken.

It is a global form of vigilanteism. Taking law into your own hands.

It may not be wiped out but just like crime prevention it most certainly can be significantly reduced.

It would be unjust to now depopulate Israel of the Jews that have been there the last 50 years, and the Jews that have been there since antiquity.

The Jews outnumber Palestinians. The Palestinians left their homes of their own volition, in expectation of united Arab invasion.

This is not about Freedom but TERRITORY! Arabs have freedom of religion in Israel, freedom to vote and work. They have autonomous areas in the Gaza strip and the west bank which are only violated when terrorists attack and seek shelter in those areas.

It is nothing like the black movements in America or South Africa, nor the anti-colonial movements in India or Indonesia.

This is about territory, most specifically certain Islamics refusal to accept that the place where Mohammad died - Jerusalem, their third holiest place - is also the holiest site of Judaism, and that compromise MUST be enacted.

They are behaving like spoilt children told to share food, and then having a tantrum when the food is forcibly split. If they had shared voluntarily the weighting against them would not have had to happen.

If the Arab confederation had not attacked, the West bank would be part of Transjordan (now only Jordan) and the Golan Heights part of Syria.

If they did not keep sending bombers in, Gaza would be free from Israeli intervention, and no incursions into Lebanon or anywhere else would occur.

The "freedom fighters" rhetoric is the latest attempt by the English educated ruler of Syria's attempt to legitimise a criminal activity. A crime against humanity.

Did the Jews win the initial creation of Israel through violent proacion Fljotsdale? Did they win freedom through terrorism?

No. Not all gains use bloodshed.

Ghandi was also a nonaggressionist.

The Australian Aboriginal freedoms were gained politically rather than violently. As such many many of us have good will for them.

(BTW. I was spent time with them as a child in the northwest of Oz, grew up knowing a very dear older lady as an adolescant, and recently recorded amidst the Aboriginal dance company on Sydneys piers. [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Terrorism is a choice. The "shortest route" he said.

What happened to patience and politics? It worked for China in "winning" back Hong Kong and Macau.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
Hey, Yorick? Have you got up early? Or have you not yet gone to bed? Its 3.50am here.....
G'night!<hr></blockquote>


Well it's 1:51pm here. I have a day off. Normally I'm working my arse off now.

Have a good sleep! [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
Don't misunderstand what I am about to say, because I condemn terrorism unreservedly...... but..... almost all freedoms, as someone pointed out in another thread, have been won through bloodshed. Terrorists ARE freedom fighters, whether we consider their actions justified or not.
For example, in America it was not just peaceful protest that got human rights for black Americans, but also violence.... In India, it was not only peaceful protest that won freedon from British rule, but also violence....
I don't approve of violence. Too many get killed who do not deserve it. But I have a little understanding, I think, of the motivation for terrorism. It is a natural human desire for freedom and security and justice.
We will never get rid of terrorists until we get rid of the injustices that cause and perpetuate it.<hr></blockquote>

Yes BUT...

Hamas are completely screwing any possibility of peace in the region. America and Britain have been trying to broker a peace deal - and this constant militant activity on the part of Hamas has ensured that it just isn't going to happen. (However, let's not lose sight of the fact that the Israelis respond to each atrocity commited by Hamas and other groups with atrocities of their own, incidentally. They are just as bloody bad when it comes down to it.)

Palestine had a great chance here to get a lot of what they wanted, ie. withdrawal, eventually, of Israel from the illegally occupied terratories in the West Bank and Gaza. But they won't stop taking pot shots at Israelis for long enough for everyone to get round the table.

All it needed was for either Palestine OR Israel to stop shooting for a while, no matter what the other side did. The guys who stopped fighting would have opened up a space for negotiation, and earned big kudos from the rest of the world to boot. Didn't happen. Both Palestine and Israelis too ■■■■■■■ wrapped up in their own need to be 'right', and to win on their own terms, ie. get 100% of what they want. Hardline Israelies wants to continue to jackboot their way into further expansion. Hardline Palestinians want the Israelis out, lock, stock and smoking barrels, leaving not a wrack behind.

Hamas will never get what they want and the sooner they realise it, the better for everyone. Israel will never be dissolved as a state. The Israelis wont get what they want either. Every inch of territory gained by them illegally will be won at the cost of bloood, both theirs and the Palestinians.

In my opinion, it was a mistake to create Israel in the first place, (let's not dispute this AGAIn, people. If you don't agree, fine... you don't have to... [img]smile.gif[/img] ) but given that it is there, we need to be realistic and work with what we have. With the Americans behind the peace process in a way that they have never previously been before (i.e. rooting for both sides, - looking for a win/win situation) there was a big chance here for resolution.

It is a great pity that Sharon is leading the country. He is stubborn and uncompromising as Hamas is, and like them, a ruthless killer. Tragically, Sharon and Hamas stand as the two bigggest obstacles to any kind of peace process. To the great detriment of both the Arab and the Jewish people.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
Hamas are completely screwing any possibility of peace in the region. America and Britain have been trying to broker a peace deal - and this constant militant activity on the part of Hamas has ensured that it just isn't going to happen. (However, let's not lose sight of the fact that the Israelis respond to each atrocity commited by Hamas and other groups with atrocities of their own, incidentally. They are just as bloody bad when it comes down to it.)

Palestine had a great chance here to get a lot of what they wanted, ie. withdrawal, eventually, of Israel from the illegally occupied terratories in the West Bank and Gaza. But they won't stop taking pot shots at Israelis for long enough for everyone to get round the table.

All it needed was for either Palestine OR Israel to stop shooting for a while, no matter what the other side did. The guys who stopped fighting would have opened up a space for negotiation, and earned big kudos from the rest of the world to boot. Didn't happen. Both Palestine and Israelis too ■■■■■■■ wrapped up in their own need to be 'right', and to win on their own terms, ie. get 100% of what they want. Hardline Israelies wants to continue to jackboot their way into further expansion. Hardline Palestinians want the Israelis out, lock, stock and smoking barrels, leaving not a wrack behind.

Hamas will never get what they want and the sooner they realise it, the better for everyone. Israel will never be dissolved as a state. The Israelis wont get what they want either. Every inch of territory gained by them illegally will be won at the cost of bloood, both theirs and the Palestinians.

In my opinion, it was a mistake to create Israel in the first place, (let's not dispute this AGAIn, people. If you don't agree, fine... you don't have to... ) but given that it is there, we need to be realistic and work with what we have. With the Americans behind the peace process in a way that they have never previously been before (i.e. rooting for both sides, - looking for a win/win situation) there was a big chance here for resolution.

It is a great pity that Sharon is leading the country. He is stubborn and uncompromising as Hamas is, and like them, a ruthless killer. Tragically, Sharon and Hamas stand as the two bigggest obstacles to any kind of peace process. To the great detriment of both the Arab and the Jewish people.<hr></blockquote>

Well said honey.

My god! What's happened? Has hell frozen over? Yorick just agreed with what Silver said!(Well said by the way Silver [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] )

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Neb:
My god! What's happened? Has hell frozen over? Yorick just agreed with what Silver said!(Well said by the way Silver [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] )<hr></blockquote>


Mate, quickest way to have a happy marriage is to agree with everything the wife says.. [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img]

No, seriously, It's balanced and realistic. I agree with all but the creation of Israel bit, but she and I both know that. Regardless I think she's on the money. [img]smile.gif[/img]

However Neb, you SUCK!!! :mad: I'm desperately trying to find those dollars......