Um. Sorry, Liliara - but when did ANYONE in this thread say the TALIBAN were innocent?

I don't recall seeing anyone write that, and I have read the entire thread up to this post of yours (not beyond it, yet). All anyone has said is that innocent Afghanis will be killed - i.e. the ordinary man, woman and child who have small option but to try and survive under their regime as best they can. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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Hi there, Yorick!

I offered the explanation of the word because you seemed to think I didn't know what it meant, lol! You are one VERY scratchy person, you know that? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
I did note what Diogenes missed AND his apology! It just did not seem relevant to the point of 'listening' that you were making, even though it was a case in point.
About people being 'hurt and angry': Maybe YOU were not, Yorick, but can you honestly say that most of America was not? I also find it dificult to believe that someone who was in NY at the time could FAIL to be hurt and angry. But my statement was a generalisation (oh, big mistake to make generalisations! But we all do), and not aimed at you specifically.
Regarding intolerance: I have definite views on things. You have definite views on things. Expressing those views strongly does NOT mean being intolerant! You come accross to ME as intolerant, friend, FREQUENTLY! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif But I do not regard it as insulting - merely that you have strong views.
SURE we will try to persuade each other that the other is wrong!! What would be the value of having strong convictions if we DID NOT try to convince our friends that our viewpoint is correct? If we are SURE something is right, then NOT to try to convice others is cowardly, isn't it? That does not mean to say either of us is ACTUALLY INTOLERANT of the other person's views!
I 'listen' to other views. I have often had my viewpoint changed by others because of the good case they present, and my own further investigation subsequent to that. That is not intolerance. You yourself have made some excellent arguments in our religious debates that have had me scurrying around to check if you might be right (imho!), and you have certainly made me pause to think very often.
So far, though, I have not seen what I consider to be a single good argument for military action in Afghanistan, even though I understand and have some sympathy for those arguments. My basic instinct is 'bomb the bastard terrorists out of existence!'
However, common sense prevails. That is not intolerance, honest! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

I AM intolerant of SOME things, though. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-24-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-24-2001).]

Right, Fljotsdale. Also, someone mentioned this before, in another thread i believe (too lazy to look for it right now), but innocents are already suffering, before we have dropped a single bomb, simply because our military is coming. Our military's reputation proceeds us, and people have fled their homes and places of work and are starving because they justifiably fear that we will bomb them if they remain.

Our military operation has already caused widespread suffering among innocents, even before we have fired a single shot.

What is even worse, Dio, is that the Aid Agencies have pulled out - these people were ALREADY in desparate straits - and Afghanistan has less than a month's food available, winter is comming on, and little if any crops have been planted due to conditions in the country. To add to their distress in an attempt to exact 'justice' on bin Laden is purely inhuman, imho.

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Yes, shortsighted, stupid, inhumane, and yet another reason for people in the world to view the US as a selfish bully who cares nothing for the safety and well being of the other countries of the world.


[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-24-2001).]

The Aid Agencies are not pulling out b/c our military is coming! They are pulling out b/c it is a very undesirable time for any westerner to be in Afghanistan. Even if our military was not being deployed to Afghanistan, these aid workers would still withdraw, it is the sensible thing to do!



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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

Dio, do you honestly think that the innocent's of Afghanistan were 'doing well' before this terrorist attack. The innocent's that you are referring to were already suffering. It is one of the poorest nations on earth, there is rampant hunger and starvation, very poor healthcare (and only available to males)...the list goes on. These people are not suffering b/c of our military, they are suffering b/c of their government!!!!



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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

They soon will be...

Why call it a war? They attacked the Pentagon, and our embassies and the U.S. Cole before that. These may sensibly, reasonably be regarded as acts of war. Especially if they were sponsored by other states. Are you suggesting that these acts don't warrant a military response--especially utilizing our intelligence assets to strike offensively now?

What the Bush administration should be clear with the American public about is that locating terrorists and bringing them to justice (or eliminating them as required) will be primarily an intelligence/special forces/covert operation. I'll bet this will be nothing at all like the Gulf War. I doubt this will be fought like a traditional war.

If nations that are harboring, fostering, and currenly protecting terrorists don't cough up every terrorist cell in their land and 'cut off' all terrorists forever after in the future then, yes, we may have to go to war with some of those other nations. What would be wrong with doing that?

For all we know the Taliban has staged what amounts to a coup in the Arab world by trying to unite the Islamic world under their own rogue, fanatial regime through the recent attacks. The vast majority of the Arab world almost certainly does NOT want WWIII! The Islamic world would lose such a war, and the result would be the end of tremendous power and political influence now wielded by the OPEC nations. I'll bet you anything we get the cooperation of most of the Arab world for our objectives of eliminating terrorism, at least at the catastrophic level we witnessed on Sept. 11th. The incentives are far greater for the Arab world to maintain the status quo with the west than to have an all out "Jihad" with the western world. The Arab nations assisting us still have to maintain outward appearances of course. And, skilled negotiators that they are, no doubt they are cutting some fantastic deals with the U.S. right now.

And we are doing some great and noble deed by making their poor condition worse, by forcing them to flee in terror and abandon what they have by our military show of force, to flee in horror for their lives to avoid our bombs?

Oh yea, great version of justice there! Well done America, champion of freedom and oppressed peoples everywhere!