Where I see such vitriolic and proto-fascist outpourings of hatred not to mention the flame baits and trolling that is made in reply to my thoughts on the matter,
I will speak my mind.

btw, my previous post wasn't a personal attack as such, but I just felt that insinuating that IW members who have different opinions about capital punishment and torture are convicted felons is slightly over the top.

[ 11-21-2002, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Eis, you stray, please send it in a
PM if you you are going to contiue to cut excerpts out, please and thank you.
Mayhap a mod should close this one before it get's out of hand ;)

Crazy idea here, but maybe it would help if people stopped arguing the person and started arguing the point. Ironworks Mantras and all that, remember?
It's pretty sad when people cannot even have the decency to remain respectful and calm in a topic such as this. Rather than insulting and accusing of insult, maybe we should all remember what we all have in common: that we are outraged about this tragedy and grieve for the boy's fate. Isn't that what's really important, no matter what ideas you have about what kind of punishment should be exacted?

Impressive way to put people who disagree with your opinions back in their place... If that masterwork example of refined, decent, respectful, and mature debating doesn't shut them up, then I don't know what else will.

http://pandemonium.phpwebhosting.com...ons/bllurk.gif</font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#ff6666">I had thought that that particular line would have been immediately and easily seen as the humor it was ment to be. I do apogize if that statement was not preceived as a humorous ludicrous statement that I thought it was. </font>

<font color="plum">My goodness, I have just had an epihany - followed closely by a case of <font color="yellow">deja vu'</font> all over again.

Allow me to officially welcome you to the forum, <font color="white">Eisenscwharz</font>.......or should I just call you <font color="lightsteelblue">Dramnek!</font> [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

I wondered where you had gotten off to.</font>

Where I see such vitriolic and proto-fascist outpourings of hatred not to mention the flame baits and trolling that is made in reply to my thoughts on the matter,
I will speak my mind.</font>[/QUOTE]"proto-fascist outpourings of hatred"? Is that flamebait? ;)

No one expects you to hold your tongue, but you seem to see any opposition to your point of view as flamebait. When you speak your mind strongly, expect to be responded to strongly.

I am not going to sort through all of that quoting and counter-quoting, but, will just say that "State-supported murder" is a fallacy. Murder is by definition illegal killing, and when there are capital punishment laws, no state-conducted execution can be considered murder, except just as common abuse. Likewise, where do you get the idea that legitimate governments do not have the right to execute people found guilty of capital offenses? Governments have reserved that right through recorded history. You may think that it is wrong, but that is merely your opinion as a private citizen. I think that the state must have the right to execute the worst criminals. But, as Groljach and Ronn have said, that is merely going back to the old capital punishment discussion, where nobody is going to change their minds. BTW, those comments about "proto-fascist" are way out of line.

Hmm, Ignoring you dodging, Can you justify killing someone for killing someone else?
It seems awfully like “you hit me, Me hit you” to me,
I mean surely We as compassionate civilised people should try to extend the hand of mercy and redemption to this person, After all, It’s what supposedly makes us civilised right?

Hmm, Well I’ve seen people die if that counts,
Both from a Brain tumour and in a car accident.
And From what I saw, I would wish death on no one. No matter the circumstances.
You see, I happen to think that it’s not really our place to take life, after all, depending on what you believe,
Either god gave us life and therefore It is not our place to take it or hasten it’s end.
Or else you believe in The Fundamental rights of the individual and human rights, including the right to life.

I thought you “didn't want to turn this into a debate on the death penalty”?
Feeling a bit hypocritical are we?

Do you think we should make exceptions with Human rights?
If so, Can you justify this?

Straw man, I of course think this is a tragedy and I have every sympathy for the victim.

I love the "victims don't count", save the guilty mentality.</font>
[/QUOTE]That is blatant Flamebait.[/qb][/QUOTE]<font color=aqua>No it isn't. It's the truth as I see it. You did spend your post attacking the opinions of others and saying why that piece of trash has the "right to life", but didn't have a single comment for the victims or their rights.

You seem to feel it's ok to state your opinions, and I feel it's ok to state mine. I don't like yours, and you don't like mine.

Oh, and I do love (in a sarcastic way, of course) the save the guilty mentality.</font> ;) [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QB][/QUOTE]

On the defensive I see,
It’s flame bait and nothing more. For shame.

Ok, if people can't stick to the topic and avoid baiting one another, we can close the thread. I really don't like doing that and it would be the first for me here in GD, so let's keep it CIVIL, please.