No worries. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]good :D . I'd be happy to have a debate some other time... just not right now. lol; save it for a rainy day, eh?

<font color="plum">Aaaah.....but God transcends the laws of physical science. After all, He created this world and everything in it, including the laws of "science" that these creations conform to. Therefore, He is above the laws of science.</font>

<font color="plum">So you believe that - if there were NO religion or belief in a higher being or power - then there would be no chaos or disorder? That, if left to his own devices, man would instinctively get along with his neighbor and they would both automatically work for the betterment of each other?

AFA the football player, where does his talent derive from? He can control and improve SOME aspects of his talent - but not all. There are many talented quarterbacks in the game, but few have ever had the natural talent and savvy of Joe Montana. I don't think any other QB can match Joe's record for last-drive comeback wins.
In the NBA, we now have Kobe Bryant and Shaq. There are many players who have worked as hard - if not harder - to hone their abilities, but Shaq and Kobe are literally heads above the rest of the league in pure physical talent. Again, where does that exceptional physical skill come from? They are born with it. Therefore, it is reasonable for them to give credit to their Creator for their physical gifts.</font>

<font color="plum">Please be wary of broad generalizations.

World War I - Started by the assassination of a French diplomat/ambassodor. (I think he was French anyway - but may be wrong).

World War II - Started by Hitler's obssession to return Germany to the status of a World Power. The "religious genocide" of the Jews didn't occur until Germany had already invaded Poland, Austria, and other surrounding countries. It was the most heinous aspect of WWII, but not the cause of it.

Korea and Vietnam - Started by communist gov'ts that controlled the northern part of those countries in an attempt to overthrow their democratic counterparts in the southern section.

American Civil War - began when Confederate soldiers finally fired upon northern ships that had been sent by Abraham Lincoln to prevent southern states from seceding from the union (which they had a Constitutional right to do, BTW....that's right, Lincoln actually violated the Constitution by preventing the South from seceding). The slavery issue wasn't even brought up until close to the wars end when support in the North was beginning to wane.</font>

<font color="plum">I appreciate your effort, but so far, you have failed to convince me of my ignorance.</font>

<font color="plum">An excellent point. You are absolutely correct. God gave Man free will and it is Man's will (not God's) that has caused so much destruction.</font>

<font color="plum">Sorry, <font color="orange">thiefprowess</font>, but this is a completely erroneous statement. It has been scientifically proven that serial killers have no moral concept of right and wrong. They feel NO REMORSE whatsoever for the pain and suffering they inflict on their victims and thier families. They see nothing wrong with their actions, because they are adhering to their own, personal code of conduct.

You apparantly have a strong dislike for religious beliefs and people of faith. Very well...that is your choice and I respect that.

All I ask is that you treat my views with the same respect.</font>


<font color="plum">That's a fair question. I WAS raised in a Christian home (Baptist to be specific). I've attended Baptist, Methodist, and Pentacostal churches in my search for faith.

I would never convert to the Jewish or Buddhist faith because I disagree with some important core beliefs. I have conducted my own search for God and He has revealed Himself to me in a convincing manner. Therefore, there is no reason for me to consider a different theology.

Yes, my parents would be greatly saddened if I DID choose to convert to a non-Christian religion. That is because they believe, like I do, that God is our Heavenly Father and that Jesus Christ is His son - who died on the cross so that MY sins might be forgiven. By converting to another religion, I would be rejecting that Holy Gift. They wouldn't stop me from doing it, but they would be upset by my choice.</font>

The Bible says the world is round. Scientists and mariners of the day said the world was flat.

Your statement about most of the wars never happening is ure speculation. You provide no facts to suport such a generalised statement.

I have detailed before the number of Singaporean Buddhists I witnessed convert to Christianity in one night, (1756) and that Children are beaten and kicked out of home when they leave Buddhism for Christ. This was verified by Lifetime, a Singaporean here.

Also, who holds prejudice against Jews? I don't know any Christians that do. Jesus was a Jew. The early church consisted almost entirely of Jews. I have Messianic Jewish friends in my church. I work for Jews. I have been mistaken for a Jew here in New York.

"In Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile"

Don't know where you're getting your information.

Regarding the twin towers everyone seems to use that to justify their own agenda. Those who want to criticise America use it as proof that America caused the attack. Now here you are citing religion is the cause. Well which is it?

There are seven million Muslims in the United Staes. Are they all attacking Churches and Synagogues? Is Indonesia, the largest Islamic nation attacking Australia, a sport deifying nation for glorifying human achievement? You are talking about minoritys. Wahabism, the strand the highjackers followed is an extremist interpretation of Islam.

But why am I defending Islam? Islam is totally different to Christianity. How can you lump opposite beliefs into the one basket?

Do we do this with political ideologies?

Oh yes, the Democrats and the Nazis are both responsible for World War II. Heck, both the Capitalists and Greenies are responsible for the degradation of the planet. And the Monarchist English and Republican Americans are both responsible for the revolution.

Or are they?

So regarding wars, was the Falklands based on religion? Was Genghis Khan a religious evangelist? Did the English want to incite the boxer rebellion in China because they loved Christ? Did Hussein invade Kuwait because Allah told him to? Did the Lombards invde Italy because they wanted to get a good view of the Vatican? Did Spain invade South America to convert everyone or to GET THE SILVER THERE.
.

Respectfully, Yorick, I did read the previous posts. I was asking for clarification. What I wanted to know is where do math and physics fit into your scheme? It matters not. I'll concede the point that my statements about Theology were a bit misplaced. They didn't come out how I wanted them to. Such are the vagaries of my sieve-like short term memory. [img]smile.gif[/img]

If we follow the dictionary definitions we get the following comparison:

re·li·gion
n.

1.
a.Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b.A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2.The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3.A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4.A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

sci·ence
n.

1.
a.The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of
phenomena.
b.Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
c.Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
2.Methodological activity, discipline, or study: "I've got packing a suitcase down to a science."
3.An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
4.Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
5.Science Christian Science.

Both these came off of Dictionary.com and so are from the American Heiritage Dictionary. From reading both of these carefully I see how Religion could be practiced in a science like manner but still fail to see how Science is a religion except perhaps in an extreme sense of the fourth definition of religion. There is no place for such things as: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe." God cannot be axiomated and so cannot be hypothesised or theorized. That's part of the mystery of God (to me at least). And inasmuch a creator or what not should be ignored when doing science lest it cloud the judgement of the scientist. There have been many theories that were wrong that have been persued over the years because people's ambitions or beliefs clouded their judgment. I was poking around on the web looking for a famous math proof that supposedly showed the existance of God. Couldn't find it so my poor explanation will have to do. The man's proof was that only God could create something out of nothing and presented a series of squences that summed a bunch of zeros (1 + (-1)). Unfortunetly his logic was incorrect. He couldn't see this because he was looking for proof of God. Isn't faith enough?

I'll wrap this up by reiterating that Science is not Religion and should never be. There are those of us who seemingly worship technology, the unholy bastard offspring of war and science research, and there are those who eschew the holy and the divine in favor facts and theorems but the practice of science should remain inviolate.

As for the subject of war and religion. I respectfully withdraw myself from this discussion. I am afraid that I might go to the point of being disrespectful and rude and that's not the way I would ever want to be online. If ever I deserve to be punched because of my words I want to be punched. :D

DeSoya

In WWI it was a Austrian/Hungarian duke of Hapsburg descent. WWII resulted from WWI.

Apparently Hitler wasn't too far out of line with his actions according to the rest of Europe. A joke goes something like this: Had you told anyone in Europe in 1910 that in 30 years 6 million Jews would be systematically prosecuted and killed the answer would be "Well... Anything can happen in France."

Good points for the most part tho', Cerek. Just thought I'd correct the origin of the Duke guy. [img]smile.gif[/img]

DeSoya

maybe Im being thick, but I simly dont see the humor. its *not* funny.

well, science does not appreciate the mysteries of human lives. what it concerns is numbers and formulers. the exact amount of carbont react with equal its amount of oxygen will result that much CO2 (dont bother to correct me on the word choices. I assure you I learnt your college chemistry shit at 9th grade). but anyways, religion teachs a way of life, it is not just a subject to be studied or taught. religion does not question the truth of unknown, instead religion includes that as mystery, as it is a inevitable experience of our existence.

defy that mystery, you lose the spiritual life, which is a soul's essential need. thats the difference between religion and science, as I see it.

Numbers and formulers is Phyics and such only one arm of science. Science does appreciate the mysteries of life but choose to seek an explaintion. Religion is matter to be taught for without it teaching all regilion will die. It also tries to explain mysterys but does so too often by ruling them acts of god then seeking real answers.

isnt physics science?

Numbers and formulers is Phyics and such only one arm of science. Science does appreciate the mysteries of life but choose to seek an explaintion. Religion is matter to be taught for without it teaching all regilion will die. It also tries to explain mysterys but does so too often by ruling them acts of god then seeking real answers.</font>[/QUOTE]But Gabriel there are Christian scientists. I was a Christian studying Sociology before I was a musician. Believing there is someone behind everything, doesn't meant you don't want to know how it's done.

I for one am fascinated by discoveries of sulfur eating beings at the bottom of the ocean (living near cracks in the ocean floor). There are Christians who believe in evolution as well. They just believe God directed it.

As I have said again and again, Science and religion are not mutually exclusive.

Has anyone considered these words?

Conscience
Omniscience
Prescience

Note the word constructions? ;)