<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
Of course, even if you are using stoneskin, elemental damage still gets through. Yep, that 10 damage from the FotA gets to hit you still.

Mm hmm, and bounces off the Protection from Magical Weapons.

Cleric can gate in a Pit Fiend pretty darn fast. Thats quite a distraction.

Pit Fiend, meet Planetar. Planetar, please kill Pit Fiend.

OR AS I SAID BEFORE, CLERIC COULD USE ANTIMAGIC SCROLL AND THE MAGE CAN'T DO ****. Its all circumstance.

There was a reason why I mentioned Mordenkainen's Sword. You need to kill it using Magic Damage. Good luck.

Mages aren't more flexible, as they have to know whats coming more than clerics do. You can't give a mage a contingency without having given the cleric time to cast spells before the fight as well, and say the cleric gates in 6 or 7 pit fiends and beefs them up? Your mage won't last very long against all that (send them in 1 at a time to make you waste your horid wiltings ect).

Give a Mage one round to prepare, that is all he/she needs. Improved Alacrity. By the way, a Mage can always use a Planetar or even Skeleton Warriors to fight the Pit Fiends. Pit Fiends are not tough, they are actually pretty weak.

It is obvious, that since we can both find a circumstance when the other would win, that neither is more powerful.

I have already detailed how a Mage can defeat a Cleric without contest. The thing is, a Mage can counter whatever a Cleric throws at him/her. A Cleric on the other hand, cannot. This is the very basis of my argument. A Mage can handle anything, a Cleric cannot. This is why I say that a Mage is more powerful than the Cleric in the BG2 game. Not because the Mage can defeat the Cleric, but because the Mage will always have ways to defeat the Cleric. There is a subtle difference.

I agree, lets end the bickering part.

I have never bickered in this thread, just debating and giving my point of view. [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

I frankly don't see how a cleric can beat a mage unless the players are unequal!

Frankly, all the arguments given for cleric's beating mages here have assumed that

A) The player of the mage/sorceror has less intellect than Good Ol' George on crack

or

B) The Mage/Sorceror stands completely still for 100 rounds.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Galadria:
All good points, Eldoran, but you should know that when you're talking to Dundee, you're talking to a player who has beaten the whole game, solo, TWICE. That's right, not even Imoen. See his other posts. ;) Besides, that's the way we get along: we argue minutae.<hr></blockquote>


LOL! There are plenty of us around who've done stuff like that! Robert the bard has finished the game way more times than I have, and I've played every kit/class to the end of the strongholds, and finished ToB four times, and SoA six times, including once as solo Sorc, the other as solo Cleric.

I couldn't seperate the two. Cleric is just as powerful (yes offensively) as a Sorcerer, just in other ways. You have to play to their strengths.

How long would it take to cast the antimagic scroll? I'm assuming longer than time stop.

You'd finish casting your scroll and either you'd be immuned with no spells or I would. This is no problem, because I have just cast project image, improved alacrity and summoned

-Planetar
-6 Mord's swords
-6 Skele Warriors

and cast on myself
-stoneskins
-protection from magical weapons
-fireshield (red)
-tensor's transformation

then, the time wears out, you look smug because I can't use magic on you....you see my army of summons....see me and my protections/fighter skills and then get pounded down.

Even if I can't summon all these (I may have got a bit carried away ;) ) my Planetar will still beat you in mele and can also cast a fair few offensive spells itself.


Were not arguing..are we? No. Your only saying that because you want this debate to end as you don't see how you can win it.

[img]graemlins/bootyshake.gif[/img] :D

Why don't you guys just fight it out in multiplayer? Quickest way to prove a point.

Otherwise, until you've tried it don't knock it.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yorick:
Why don't you guys just fight it out in multiplayer? Quickest way to prove a point.
Otherwise, until you've tried it don't knock it.<hr></blockquote>

Actually, that is unfair to both Clerics and Mages. This is because all the party-friendly offensive spells become useless.

Now, Neverwinter Nights. That, that might end this debate with finality.

Um, why would you use the anti-magic scroll ON THE CLERIC?!?!!? It would be cast on the MAGE, so the MAGE couldn't cast another spell. At this time, as the mage has no stoneskin, no tenser's transformation, no mantles, he is very, VERY outclassed by the clerics AC and better weapons. Also, clerics can summon their own big helpers. Pit fiends are examples. Devas could be summoned instead.

While I LVOE Mordenkainen's Sword, they get rocked by spells that do any damage. They don't have many hit points, and so when my firestorm gets cast, they are in trouble.

None of use are about to relinquish our positions here, so what is the point of this thread?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
Um, why would you use the anti-magic scroll ON THE CLERIC?!?!!? It would be cast on the MAGE, so the MAGE couldn't cast another spell.

You cannot cast on an invisible Mage.

While I LVOE Mordenkainen's Sword, they get rocked by spells that do any damage. They don't have many hit points, and so when my firestorm gets cast, they are in trouble.

While you casting your spell, the Mage is also doing something by the way. He will not just stick around doing nothing. IIRC also, they can only be hit by Magic Damage like Magic Missile or Skull Trap. Death Spell and Death Fog also works.

None of use are about to relinquish our positions here, so what is the point of this thread?

Friendly debate, although it seems to have degenerated quite a bit.<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
Um, why would you use the anti-magic scroll ON THE CLERIC?!?!!? It would be cast on the MAGE, so the MAGE couldn't cast another spell.<hr></blockquote>

If you'll look at my post you will see that I never assumend whoyou were casting it on. I meerly pointed out that I believed that I could cast time stop before you cast your Protection from Magic scroll.

Therefore, with improved alacrity I have already cast all the spells I want, including Tensors, so all you've done is protected me from your own spells. Do you think you could go up against a fighter of the same level as you without being able to use spells on him? Whilst being attacked by Planetars/Mordie's Swords and breathed on by huge Dragon heads/Crushed by disembodied hands?


Hmmm?

[img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

Still arguing, hmm?

Well, it's a slow day and I'm feeling stupid, so I'll jump in with these tidbits.

Insect Plague will work on anyone, and invisibility is not a defense. So if Insect Plague is memorized up to the max (let's say 10 times), the Mage is toast. Powerful Mage bit/stung to death while a Cleric sings a hymn. Maybe for extra fun the Cleric will throw in an Earthquake. Or Implosion.
**Note** Too bad Insect Plague is available only to Druids and not Clerics.

Also, I notice Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is getting a lot of mention. Too bad it's an area spell, which means a Mage can't target a Cleric with it - only the area in which the Cleric resides. Just move a few steps when you see that big ol spell coming atcha.

So far, I consider the only clear advantages a Mage has over a Cleric to come from Time Stop and Imprisonment. But as I believe I have said earlier, simply because one can defeat the other in a single encounter doesn't mean the victor is more powerful. Sorry for all the disappointed egos, but it's true. And the reason people solo more often with Mages is NOT because they're more powerful, but because they're easier to play, especially when you factor in the foreknowledge of what's going to happen next.

Try assigning a solo Cleric and a solo Mage to two people who've never played the game and see who has the tougher time.

OK my rant is done.