Have we ever been the first to attack? Or just the first to respond?

I think you became a more rational discussion partner after time
and well discussions are meant to become heated as they are afterall discussions
it should affect your opinion about people




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I'm Watching you...

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Weeeelllll, I must admit, I had thought about it. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif It's probably not the best option, but with a couple more attacks it will probably start looking better and better. I must disagree though, the military will be needed to oust this network once it's found. The Afghan populus doesn't need to get hurt more than necessary, they just need to stay out of the way and not harbor the organization in their town.

Yup! My thoughts exactly. Good discourse sets you firmer in the stuff you believe in and shakes you loose of the stuff you only think you believe in. Take care y'all!

That's a bit difficult, Sir K. (with regard to your last point.) The Taliban ARE a coercive government (if one can call it that) and Afghani citizens pretty much have to do as they are told, or take the consequences....

Anyway, it's late here in sunny old Britian (ha!) and the Silver Cheetah is going to bed. Night all!



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Ascended Mistress of Illumination

Forgot... That 'staying out of the way' thing - it's called refugeeism, and the Afghanis attempts to stay out of the way of either the Taliban or, now, America, have not met with the best of success so far. As Yorick said about the Jews in another thread, where are the poor buggers supposed to go? No-one really wants them. It's heartbreaking, isn't it? Now I am really going to bed. At times like this, I remember to be very grateful that I have a bed.... Not everyone is so lucky.




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Ascended Mistress of Illumination

In the history of our country, you mean?

Well, the major incidents would include the long, hundred year conquest and virtual extermination of the Indians (the rougly hundred years following the founding of the Unites States -- actually a bit longer than that) in one shameful episode of US agression after another; the War with Mexico, in which the US helped trump up incidents in an excuse to conquer and claim half of what was then Mexico; certainly the Civil War if viewed from the point of view of the US gov't fighting to preserve a big chunk of its territory by gunpoint (We southerners find it much easier to view the War of Northern Aggression in that way http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif), the Spanish American war, where a mysterious explosion on the Battleship Maine in Havana, Cuba was used politically as a reason to gobble up what remained of the Spanish Empire in the Americas and the Pacific (this is how we acquired the Phillipines, for example, treating it as a colony in part of our Manifest Destiny Empire, including the brutal suppression of rebellion against us by our military), and of course the long, sordid series of military interventions in Central and South America, the latest such being Panama by George Bush Sr., which if you will recall was the case of a US invasion and takeover of the country, without a single shot having been fired at us first, in your words.

We participated in the Western Domination and carving up of China, suppressed the Chinese in the Boxer Rebellion, and helped hold sway over China allied with europeans until the people became so sick of our version of western influence that they turned by their millions to the Communists and the support of the Soviet Union and drove the Westerners out.

Of course there was Vietnam, in which we killed over a million people for no particular good reason at all.

The Middle East has long been a sore point. After the great victory of World War II the US dominated the region, along with her ally Britain, who was at that point fast losing grip on her old empire to the US. We supported such ruthless, bloody, tyrants as the Shah of Iran, who suppressed his people with such extremes as torture. We armed him, supplied him, kept him in power with the assistance of the CIA, all because we could work with him for oil. The Iranian people sure took that as a first attack by the US. Can't same I blame them.

Okay, that was just a quick summary of how the US is in no position to claim that it never is the aggressor.

There is a lot I wanted to respond to, but this was on the last page so I will start here http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Wouldn't we be getting ourselves into the same situation as we have in the past (and that some people here are against)...if we support the Northern Alliance and help them gain a majority rule in Afghanistan, isn't that the same as supplying the Taliban and bin Laden in their fight against Russia? How do we know that the Northern Alliance will turn out any better? We cannot argue that support was a bad choice in one instant and then turn around and try to justify it in the next. We (any country that lost citizens in the attack) should deal with this matter directly, not through support of an opposition group.


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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

Absynthe, you have me in stitches! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hihi.gif


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get a life, bitch


just kidding! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/biglaugh.gif

whatever, Sir Kenyth, we all have to agree to disagree http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif