In reference to the Gord the Rogue series ("Dance of Demons" last book in the series)

Tharizdun could only be destroyed by one person, the Champion of Balance, and even that wasnt guaranteed. So the gods and greater powers bestowed their gifts to the champion (which was Gord).

The forces of Good refused to work with the Neutrals, because to them you served good or evil, not both. Gord even met with a Solar (most powerful of the devas and only 24 in exsistence) once, and was basically told to piss off. He said the causes of Neutrals where a waste of time. He fought for the complete destruction of evil not balance.

The forces of Neutrality were fighting to keep Evil and Good equally balanced, while the Goods were willing to let Evil fight itself into oblivion. Tharizdun had been caged once before but could not be destroyed. Gord was the only chance to finally destroy him.

It also showed you how the alignment system in AD&D really worked. Before reading the series it was fairly vague, but afterward it made total sense.

yeah, i understand, but are you saying it is acceptable to write Gord dude wooping demons after demons? lol, u know, demon is not just a lvl 25 monster with a neat sword. that is total bs.

I am so embarrassed….I forgot that multi-volume epic to bad taste and poor writing even existed. I wonder if I should rent the video….

IronDragon mentioned Wizard's First Rule and Magic of Recluse. I enjoyed these 2, WFS had some new twists on the old stereotypes (the fair maiden couldn't be touched) and MoR was a little whiney, but the stories were good. the problem I have with Modesitt is that every character thinks they are struggling in what they do, and end up the greatest of all time in what they do, and they are all oh-so-humble. Incarnations of Immortality are not the only Piers Anthony books that suck, most of them do. All of his stories are over-simplistic and not WELL written. They are semi-fun stories, I read all the IoI series because I have a need to finish what I start, just like with Mission: Earth and the Belgarath books by Eddings, painful as all these have been. I thought Salvatore's early Drizzt books were equally simplistic, but I think I have (thankfully) witnessed the evolution of a decent author to a firly good one, his later Drizzt books are just *better* written. I can't pick A book as the worst, but there are some doozies out there.

To Ken:
The demon lords themselves could take out 100's of their own kind in one strike using the artifacts they carried. Gords power was even greater than theirs. Though there were a few times he got into some trouble.

Also the demons had great power but when fighting each other, they didnt really use their innate magical abilities due to the magic resistances all demons have. Now when they fought regular mortals they could blast away with magic.

The magic used was with great artifacts of power. ALL of the Demonlords had artifacts that were unresistable (no saving throws). Gratz's item was the "Eye of Deception". That one artifact was so powerful, it was the main reason he was the toughest demon in the Abyss. He actually altered space and time with that thing once, and that was just one of its many abilities.

Let me be clear. This is not like playing Ad&D (btw it was 1rst editon back then). At this point Gord was not a Player Character. Like if your character where to make demi-god status he would immediately become an NPC (as per 2nd edition rules I believe).

A spoiler for you since you think its BS anyways
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"Vengeance!" Gratz shrieked, and from the Eye of Deception burst a force that contained all of the pent-up rage of the Abyss.
Gord was taken unawares, and the blast of enery struck him from behind. It sundered the aura of azure and slammed into the young man's body in an instant. Gord fell as if struck by a titanic maul.
"Now all is mine!" Grazt shouted in triumph, plying the forces from the artifact he held upon the cowering yeth before him.
Tharizdun arose as if the ravening energy refreshed him. "No stupid demon," the archfiend countered. Now you and all are mine!" With a flick of his fingers Tharizdun turned the Eye of Deception back, and Grazt was felled by his own device.
Then the final slaughter of demonkind began.
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As you can see, to fight Tharizdun he needed the power he was given. You also see that Gord was also hurt by Grazzt(he was not invunarable like you were led to believe). You just have to view the scope of the book. You are trying to put an average character in an Abyss wide war.

Since this is a roleplaying board, my choice would have to be the novelization of BG2. I have no idea what i was thinking when I rented this but suffice to say the book was utter crapola. Even though i had finished the game I still could not follow the plot of the book. To make matters worse Minsc is only given the briefest mention (as an idiot), Yoshimo is underused, so is Jaheira. Oh yeah, the protagonist is also a brain-dead barbarian who you will not want to root for. Ah dammit every page of the book was pure mental torture. I felt sorry for the trees that died for this literary abomination. For those repressed teenage fanboys, there is a brief lesbian scene between Imoen and Phaere, but trust me that doesn't warrant that you should buy this. I can only wonder what the Throne of Baal novel is like.

The main problem is that nothing in the book is based upon the game, except the names of the people and places. I didn't recognise it.

oh well, i dont think either you or your author understand the definition of a Demon, one of those is, alone, worthy of being the final villian by himself. they are not goblins placed out there for simple slaughter. they dont show up in hundreds only to be instantly destroyed, reduced to ashes by two mere mortals.

what is a demon, is that not the counter part of some being Holy? they either fell from Grace to become what they are now, or were created as a perverted mirror image of something good? their power mimic that of their goodly counterpart, and should not be easily dismissed by anything wielded by a mortal, or immotal. and yet we see, this Gord guy swept them away like an autumn wind sweeping fallen leaves. hardly any sweat, until he met the last and strongest demon.

no sir, the strongest demon, does not scream 'vegence' like a loser. He sat in His Dark Throne made of countless spirits' suffering and torment, pulled together by His sinister will. His pawns worked unsean and in all forms through out the space and time where men kind were known to exist, His Minister Death, His Domain all that was lightless. His dream was fire, and His gaze lingered on the blueprints designed to one end, the annihilating of the Creation.

His minions as foretold were called (and should be called) the Spawns of Hellmouth, the Burning Legion, as called among themselves the Administrators of the Condamned, as known in the past Harbingers of the Storm. He Himself was known (and should be) to people of various worlds as the Prince of Fire, Nightingale of Doom, Lord of the Seven (Demon Dukes), to maybe people of our/Gord's world the First Who Walked the Earth, and finally to beings of Holy the Damned King of the Hated Legion.

His thoughts alone could shake the foundation stones that supported the worlds. He was enraptured, as do all his kind, on misery and torror and became stronger still with each added soul condamned to his name. His Lust for Destruction and Hatred of Life manifest a great stormy fury from the deepest pit of the Abyss, threatening to swept away world after world. His armors are the many powers of the world, each dedicated knowingly or unknowingly to his cause. Some were simply cowered before his majesty. Others were enslaved by his will. One way or another, they served to grow his power till the end of days. These powers, layer after layer, protected him and advanced his cause, to directly assult Himself there will be hell to pay. The worlds will suffer the consequences.

So, even IF Gord was imbued with the powers of Gods, through out the world, the evil that had been dwelling for ageless would simply win without the powers of Good Gods counterbalacing them. Many ancient civilizations would perish in this struggle, billions of lives gone and their souls would serve some other hedious evil in death, many worlds would be utterly destroyed or enslaved by one evil or another.

To sum it up, a fight with a so-feared Gord was as important as a grip of grain is among a field of wheat, easily dismissed by Him like blowing out a candle in the storm.

plus Demonslaying is the same ubering as Godslaying. I am not talking about AN AVERAGE Gord, I am talking about whatever friggin level. let me repeat, demons are not just a lvl 25 monster with a nifty +127 sword for you to kill. you dont just kick hundreds of demons around like they are your bitch.

[ 04-10-2003, 04:13 AM: Message edited by: Ken Rauhl ]

Kenny, Kenny, Kenny...

Remember this is AD&D(and not 2nd or 3rd edition but first) we speak of. I personally had a few characters that would give most demons a run for their money(just about all of the lower level demons in 1rst edition were between 4 and 8 hit dice...very killable).

Also the demons weren't really godlike. They were a just a powerful race of beings that happen to live in the Abyss. They appear otherworldly to regular mortals, but in the Abyss they are common place, as are their abilities and powers. The powers that are in Monster Manual 2(showing my age now) have little effect on other demons and are rarely used. They depend on their weapons and items when handling their own kind.

This whole last book is about the largest war ever fought in the Abyss. Gord was basically wheeling and dealing with the other sides to get the Theoparts. He didn't just hack is way to victory. He couldnt. The demons were too many. He basically played them against each other,and used their own chaotic natures and fears against them.

He even made several alliances to help various factions (which is why the forces of good wouldn't help out). The passage about him laying low countless demons was when he first entered on the uppermost layer. The demons he killed were the lower level ones (cannon fodder).

You keep going on about how powerful demons are, but its actually relative(hell, Im godlike when compared to an ant). I stated that Gord was no longer a mortal being. He had basically achieved at least demi-god status (it was actually possible in 2nd edition and there where steps to follow to achieve it).

BTW here is another spoiler for you. It should calm your nerves a bit.
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He doesn't defeat Tharizdun, he proves to be way too powerful. Gord is slain.

Doh, also forgot. Tharizdun does take over all existence. The story is written by Gary Gygax, co founder of D&D and Ad&d (after he left his company TSR). In this series he basically kills off his own created world, Greyhawk (Forgotten Realms soon became the realm of choice, and most Greyhawk content forgotten). The ending was lame, but the series was actually pretty good. Back when he was just plain "Gord the Rogue" was good also (which is what he was thru all of the books except the last one). He got into some really neat situations.

[ 04-10-2003, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Sneeki Two ]

u still dont understand, that is the VERY reason why this book is loads of crap. demon is NOT a monster made of dice and its sides. demon's formidable power is in its cunning and its powerful bizzare vicious allies in the trunk.

do you get it now? having a character to woop most demons is just bs. and a DM allowing that to happen is an idiot. capice? point taken?

demons are not there for you to kill like goblins, and the book and your character exactly contradicts that point. neither the author nor you UNDERSTAND the concept of demon.