Yes, they are about the only thing that can make cavarly fear.

Hey, I've been playing as the Turks (since I managed to conquer the world as the Danes [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] ) as I wanted to try a Muslim faction. I've managed to get rid of Egypt and have taken Trebizond, Anatolia, Georgia and Lesser Armenia from the Byzantines, then I went for a ceasefire to give myself some time to consolidate (was starting to run out of money :D ).

Anyway the camels have been invaluable in neutralising the Byzantine kataphraktoi, and I've purposely held back my own Ghulams until the enemy are routing. I've been using mainly spearmen but am now able to get some Saracen infantry but it's taking a while to replace all the spears obviously. My main attacking infantry are urban militia and Ghazi infantry, both are ok but neither are on a par with even the basic feudal men at arms or vikings I had as the Danes. Do Muslim factions (specifically the Turks) get any decent swordsmen? I'm having a bit of trouble breaking up all those enemy spears without a sword line to wrap around them - the Ghazi are more axemen (although useful against armoured targets) while the urban militia are basically just upgraded peasantry with a polearm. What's going to be the staple of my army without swords?? [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

The Turks are one of my favorite factions - I tend to rely on the Futuwwas as my swordsmen, at least through the beginning and middle periods. They take high casualties in a prolonged battle but because of their high morale they keep fighting regardless. I generally keep them behind my spears at first so they can get shots off from their bows, then attack the weakest parts of the enemy lines. They just never seem to waver, no matter the situation. I love those guys, they're one of my three favorite units in the game.

The Turks are fun. That is the faction I am playing recently.

I love harrassing with the mounted archers. In a battle last night the Egyptian spearmen were running away in 3 different directions thanks those units and thier constant arrow bombardment/skirmish tactic. All the while my spearmen routed the Egytian camels into some units of my own camels who snuck around. Poor Egyptian archers only had some peasants to protect them from my heavy calvary. The fools withdrew with reinforcments still waiting although they outnumbered me two-to-one! [img]graemlins/evilhaha.gif[/img]

I just can't wait til the Egytians are done so I can consolidate a strong line to the north by taking some Bynzatine land, and then my goal is to unite all Muslims under the Turkish flag by destroying the Almhods. Next is control of the Med, and then Europe is my oyster! :D

Did I mention I love this game! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

I'm waiting to be able to get Janissary infantry and heavy infantry...till them I've also had to change my approach (I was playing the Danes before and they had some awesome front-up units) - lots more micromanagement and relying on harrying with Turcoman Horse (basically my entire vanguard is made up of Turcoman Horse or Horse Archers) and basically having the centre a primarily defensive army with spearmen and Saracen Infantry, with some Ghazis and Muwahids to charge when someone gets pinned by my spears. The problem with the Ghazis is that while their morale is high they're pretty useless man-to-man - they get decimated in a big way (though at least they don't rout). I tried using Ottoman infantry to replace my swords as my spearkillers but they're useless too! [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

I'll just have to stick it out till I get the Janissaries I think...

Hmmm...I take it back about Ottoman Infantry - they're actually pretty good once you learn how to use them...:embarrassed:

I haven't gotten far enough up the tech tree to have Ottman's yet-How do you use them?

Ottomans are like a souped-up version of futuwwas so they have a bow AND an axe - so they're basically great for sending against any of the Catholic or Orthodox armies which happen to be armour heavy (axes has an armour piercing bonus). So you can put them in your van and set them on skirmish, they will retreat behind your Saracen Infantry when the enemy charges, then you can shower them at will while they're pinned by your Saracens. Then when they run out of ammo you charge them from the flanks and they'll rip the enemy apart - I had a unit of 60 Ottoman Infantry that destroyed 180 feudal men at arms while they were pinned by 100 Saracens, the feudals were slit open like tin cans. They're quick enough to run down routing foes as well.

Against armoured foes they're great - but don't use them against lightly armoured Muslim or Slav units as their bonuses are negated...

Cool Memnoch! I started a late era Turks campaign to check them out. My kind of unit!

Hey,

Are Saracen infantry better than the Muwhadi foot infantry in your expirience? According to the unit guide it seems the Muwhadi have better charge, attack, speed, and moral but worst defense and armor.

I plan on using a mix of both, I think.

Well, I haven't got the unit guide, but I've found that Saracens are much better at holding the line because their defence rating is better, and there are more men in the unit so it doesn't get wrapped as much. Muwahids I'm finding are great as reserve troops, because you can use them either defensively (to plug holes in your line) or offensively (to flank). Ottomans are great as long as you're fighting heavily armoured foes - they're not great fighting your fellow Muslims in the desert (I prefer to use futuuwas for that, they are better against lightly armoured opponents).

I've had to change my tactics considerably to adapt to these Turkish hybrid units - but I'm really starting to enjoy using them. I just fought two MASSIVE battles with the Byzantines over two years to try and get control of Nicaea - they had twice as many troops as me over the campaign, they had heaps of Byz infantry, kataphraktoi, spears, trebizond archers, napthas and a whole bunch of peasants to support them - they had four armies in there, maybe 3000+ troops. All I had was Turcoman Horse, Ottoman Infantry, Saracens, Muwahids and one Ghazi suicide squad. AND I BEAT THEM!!!! :D :D :D It was tough though, the first year I sent in four units of Turcoman horse to basically try and decimate as many of their expensive units as possible and I managed to waste some of their valuable kataphraktoi and Byz infantry units before withdrawing when I ran out of ammo. Then the second year I staged my initial assault. I used my Turcomans to split their army, their spears and archers drew away, exposing the peasantry and infantry which I rained arrows down on. When the Byzantine infantry charged they hit my Saracens head on, while their peasants routed. My Saracens pinned the infantry while my Muwahits flanked and charged from the side (they've got a very high charge rating). Meanwhile the spears basically got cut to shreds by my Turcos though two of the four units got decimated by their archers and they ended up routing (but I didn't need them by then). They had reinforcements pouring in like you wouldn't believe, I was all out of arrows, and their general just would not die, I had my entire army attacking him but he was like Drizzt Do'Urden, almost impossible to kill. He finally fell after 10mins of real time trying to bring him down with my entire army surrounding him. Unbelievable. [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

BTW, you shouldn't need a late-era campaign to get Ottoman Infantry Chewy - all you need is a Keep and a Bowyer's Shop. I got them well before I got futuuwas (since I held off on building castles till as late as possible).

[ 09-12-2004, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

Here's another question about tactics: when you guys are fighting as the attacking force and have your spear wall coming up, do you walk them up to engage the opposition to pin or do you charge them? Or do you wait till the opposition decides to charge you and instead send some other forces out to meet the enemy spears head on?

I send out a spear force with mixed archers. I stop them some 150 meters from the enemy and have the archers pepper. First targets are archers, so I don't get killed before I anger the enemy into charging. Then I run him through, and the flanks get closed by heavy cavalry.

I have a question... how do you make a unit that has both a ranged and a melee weapon to switch from one to the other? I'm never figured out and rarely use them because of that.

By the time they run out of arrows the battle is already over, so I just use regular archers type units instead.

On the unit card, next to the status(charging, fighting etc.) there's an arrow/sword icon. Click that. That's why Hashishin rule. They come out, fire a salvo of arrows and can immidiately start cleaving with scimitars.

I really depends on the situation, but usually I like to goad the opponent into attacking with my own ranged harrassment and charge my spears in to meet the charge head on.

Another note on tactics:

If I can I will manuever almost my whole attacking army trying to flank the opponent on equal elevation. This usually causes the A.I. to reposition to avoid the flanking manuever and makes for great horse-archer harrasment opportunities.


In one particular battle I made the A.I. move it's army in three directions at once! This was caused by my broad flank on one side counterbalanced with a series of mounted harrassments on the other. Sufficed to say the strungout and disordered opponent made for easy pickings when I charged my main force in for the kill.

When you have the dual-purpose unit selected just hold alt while clicking on the unit you wish to attack. This will cause a ranged unit to attack with melee but doesn't change the default from ranged.

Most mounted ranged units can double as weak light calvary and make for great players to pursue units that have been routed. You can also melee-charge ranged-foot units with them as well and take away some of the edge foot have in the shooting contest vs mounted.

Do you have the expansion? I do and I dont get the Ottoman foot units though I have the required buildings. I do get Turkomen infantry which are similiar. According to unit guide ( the unit comparison guide is the one I refer to here: http://shogun.cafe24.com/medieval/ ) Perhaps the expansion nerfed them and made them late units only?

Anyway....
Thanks for the insight and the war story! So many things make this game great! [img]smile.gif[/img]

I agree with out-flanking when attacking. The only other tactic I try is to pin one side of my enemy's army with spears and then bring cavalry around that same side to attack their general. It leaves my other side soft, but if I can rout or kill their general it is generally worth it.

Chewbacca, I dont have the expansion and have the same problem. For whatever reason, ottoman infantry arent available when I start early and play for a while, yet if I start in the late or high period, they are. In my current game I've already got janissaries, but still no ottomans!

Personally, I rely more on Morale to win my fights.

I put my footmen in the center of my army with a unit or two of cavalry behind as backup, and put the rest of my Cavalry on either side. I then send them against the lowest morale units of the ennemy and his General while my footmen take care of the spearmen.

In the beginning I kill the first wave of prisoners I capture. That's usually enough to make them run. Then I send my light cavalry after them while my main army wait in formation. When the ennemy reinforcement start coming in I pull back my light cavalry and do the same thing again.

In my personal experience, an elite heavy cavalry unit will almost always win against a regular spear unit. The Cavalry kill at least 4-5 spearman for every casualty it suffer, so the spearmen usually panic at their biggest loss and start running away. Sure, they have the number and would eventually win, but none of them seem to want to be part of the 40-50% or so casualty they would get.

You can hold down the Alt key and this will force them to use their melee attack. It's great for using when spears are charging your futuwwas - just change them to melee and since they're armed with swords they'll decimate the spears. :D

Do you have the expansion? I do and I dont get the Ottoman foot units though I have the required buildings. I do get Turkomen infantry which are similiar. According to unit guide ( the unit comparison guide is the one I refer to here: http://shogun.cafe24.com/medieval/ ) Perhaps the expansion nerfed them and made them late units only?

Anyway....
Thanks for the insight and the war story! So many things make this game great! [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]I've just got the normal game, haven't found the expansion anywhere. [img]graemlins/awcrap.gif[/img] I haven't got my game patched yet either, maybe that's the reason?

I tried using Turcoman foot - they're great archers but horrible in melee as far as I found. Though I'm just discovering futuwwas - great for breaking up spearwalls, particularly against lightly armored enemies. :D

[ 09-13-2004, 03:43 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

I just patched my game and now the Ottoman Infantry aren't available!! :( It must've been the patch...

Well damn...

Hire some Celts...

Aw hell that's it and that sucks. Are you gonna un-patch to keep the unit?

Nah...it's probably been patched out of early for a good reason - because it can totally destroy Catholic tin cans. Probably unbalanced the game a bit - seriously Chewy, with the below army configuration I was unstoppable:

</font>

• 3 x 100 Saracen Infantry (to act as spear wall)</font>
• 2 x 60 Futuwwas (for missiles and to break up oppo spear wall)</font>
• 4 x 40 Turcoman Horse (for missiles and to harass and splinter)</font>
• 2 x 60 Ottoman Infantry (for missiles and to destroy armoured infantry/heavy cavalry)</font>
• 2 x 60 Muwahid foot for flanking</font>

None of the Catholics or Byz could stand against me. With this config I conquered most of the Byzantine lands around the Black Sea. Now the Byzantine Empire is basically a small province in Petraslavyl (or whatever). :D

it wasn't a balancig issue, it was a bug - before patch period requirements didn't apply for some reason and you could build any unit, even late period units like Ottoman Infantry, in any period, as long as you had the required buildings.

That's a bummer - I loved my Ottomans, they were the best thing to use against armour. Not much point in using them if you've already got Janissary Infantry as Janissary Infantry have higher attack values - though Ottomans do have an AP attack...

Another question - playing as the Turks, what good are Imams? They can't try anyone for heresy, so they're basically just jumped up alims, right?

Yep, they convert faster, but that seems about it. I dunno if they effect zeal though for Jihads like Inquisitors do for Crusades. I Hadn't thought about it.