Thank you, Mel. You pointed out some of what *I* was going to...wolves don't "train" their offspring to be monogamous. Nor do birds of prey. Nor species of whales, dolphins and even lobsters.

*I* prefer the long-term relationships because I like having someone in my life long enough to learn who I am and what I'm about and care about more than what my body offers. I need to feel loved and appreciated and I never got that from casual sex relationships.

In short, humans are a complex species. Wanting the "wham, bam, thank-you-ma'am" kind of relationship is neither "right" nor "wrong". Neither is preferring long-term, soul-mate type relationships. We have a diverse enough population that "spreading the genetic material" around is not necessary at this time; and we have the leisure to indulge in monogamy if we so choose. Also with current contraceptive availability, polygamous relationships are not as detrimental as they once were.

To each his or her own. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-08-2005, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Lady Sedai ]

Haha, you tell 'im Mel :D

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Damn straight! (or gay, or bi, or whatever tickles your fancy)

But as far as I recall, we're talking about Homo sapiens sapiens here, not wolves, or birds of prey. Physiology plays a huge part in how animals rear their young, and subsequently in how their mating patterns are going to be organised. Some species of wolf may employ monogamy, while others may operate under an alpha-male-take-all approach. There's just no set law to any of it. And humans, abstract thought n' all, employ all manner of methods to make sure that each new generation survives to reach mating age. I agree with your implication that there is no right or wrong way of going about your sexual business.

[ 02-09-2005, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

Guess i've learned something today then, i honestly thought we were the only species that had sex for pleasure. I know i heard or read it somewhere, but i'll take your word for it then that it was false information.

Lady sedai put it right, humans are very complex, and each of us have our own typical views. Mine's very simple, i fly from one tree to the next.

Sometimes i wish i was a pig though. :D

Actually I meant we're not the only species that has sex for fun, or other reasons than creating offspring. ;)
(edit: Johnny, chimpanzees/bonobos for instance do. In fact sex is a social lubricant for them, and they engage in all kinds of sex (won't specify because of this forum's rules))
And I seem to recall rats mate for pleasure too.

Also, I wish people would stop confusing monogamy and committed long-term relationships. I know couples who have been married for years with no intention of ever splitting up, but who are not sexually monogamous.

Oh and Hiero, your 'angsty' way of thinking is as much a social construct as the others mate. Or did you invent it? ;) Seriously, why don't you relax on the whole herd thing a little? The "SHEEP!! You're all SHEEP, I tell you" routine gets a bit old. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 02-08-2005, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

Yeah...I was about to correct myself there, Mel. Sorry about that. But you are also correct. I know I've heard that dolphins have sex for fun. I believe some simian species do, too (other than humans). I don't doubt other species do as well, I just don't know of any others off the top of my head. [img]smile.gif[/img]

But at first I thought you were talking about his comment about it being a socialization to be monogamous, so that's what I responded to.

Either way, we both make good points. ;)

I think some people are assuming that 'long term and monogamous' means 'boring' or something. But that doesn't have to be the case and for many of us in committed, monogamous relationships it's just as spicy and interesting as you want it to be. There really is something to be said for the closeness and trust built up over time. As far as I've seen, it adds it's own zest to the relationship. [img]smile.gif[/img] Knowing we have a lifetime to explore the possibilities....just makes it even better. ;)

Mel, nicely put! I hadn't realized about the rats (or dolphins etc!) but Jim's nodding and saying 'she's right!' as he reads over my shoulder. Learn something new every day! :D

[ 02-08-2005, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

Mel, I have never, ever, suggested that my way of thinking is not inherently related to the social constructs of my time and place. People keep saying the same old things to irritate me, so I keep saying the same old things to counter (and as a matter of unavoidable course, irritate) them. It's a living purgatory of social revulsion and value clash, but what're you gonna do eh? It's free entertainment, and provides a training-ground for me to polish my rhetoric for my 'real life' arguments (y'know, the ones that actually count ;) ).

[ 02-09-2005, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

And how... look up the anatomic structure of the male dolphin, and you will see why they do. It also explains why dolphins (of both sexes) are always smiling... I'd like to come back as a dolphin in my next life. [img]smile.gif[/img] Either sex.

In the nature vs. nurture argument, I think h. sap. is beyond the environmental dictates of breeding practices, but most of our social dictates are so screwy that we have a hard time telling what's what. For the most part, anything that you're comfortable with, that is fulfilling for you, is as 'correct' a choice as any other. Almost any relationship that one can think of has been acceptable and successful at one time or another in the history of mankind.

As for someone's fixation on sheep and herds... New Zealand is famous for it's sheep, and in that long dark night of the soul, who can say what may serve to soothe a man's troubled heart? ;)


I will now patiently await the response of someone who I'm sure is even now opening a can of whoop-ass, of which I will be the well-deserved recipient...

Well, whoever such a bitter, malevolent ol' bile-spitter would happen to be, they certainly would have no right to make sexual value judgments regarding the good State of Washington, renowned for its logging... and its loggers... those proud, austere Lumberjacks of the Northwestern US... with their hearty, exuberant, some might say gay lifestyle... those lumberjacks, they're ok, they sleep all night and they work all day... and they keep the great State of Washington's lingerie business booming, but don't ask me how or why, it's really not my place to judge. I won't say a word, not one little word...

[ 02-09-2005, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]