It costs money to excecute people.

In any case, turn it around. Put lifers into work that benefits society. Societies of old made prisoners row galleys, or work mines, or build roads.

Why not do that? Use prisoner labour to build something, rather than spend money throwing that life away.

As to the whole idea of imprisonment, it is making a decision about society - that the individual is a threat to society and should not be free to exist within it. it is not making a decision about whether that individual should live or not.

Exile is a similar punishment, but who would take a criminal these days? It's virtually impossible to prevent a return as well.

Mind you. Aliens face exile as a potential punishment. Can be quite a deterrant. (Speaking from personal experience) I wouldn't want to put even the slightest foot wrong at all.

<font color = lightgreen>I think we all agree that the system of the death penalty is, as it currently exists, flawed. Are we going to talk it to death or try to do something about it? I challenge everyone, myself included, to come up with a logical and reasonable system that could be more balanced, equitable, and/or fair; however, please leave emotions out of the solution because it is a problem to solve, not a relationship to mend.</font>

[ 12-03-2003, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: Azred ]

It costs money to excecute people.

In any case, turn it around. Put lifers into work that benefits society. Societies of old made prisoners row galleys, or work mines, or build roads.

Why not do that? Use prisoner labour to build something, rather than spend money throwing that life away.

</font>[/QUOTE]<font color=orange>That sounds all fine and dandy, but what about that guy or gal who was working a construction job you just put out of work, so prisoners could do something constructive.

In the late 1800's the State of Tennessee went to the Coal Companies and offerred them prison labor to dig coal at a very cheap price. The Coal Companies, seeing what a good deal this was, got rid of all their coal miners (who made less than a pittance) and put these prisoners to work. Needless to say the miners didn't take this laying down and war between the out of work miners and the Coal Companies broke out in the East Tennessee Mountains, with the prisoners caught in the middle. This was one of the things that stated the UMW (United Mine Workers). I figure much the same thing would happen all over again if you were to do that.

It costs money to excecute people.

In any case, turn it around. Put lifers into work that benefits society. Societies of old made prisoners row galleys, or work mines, or build roads.

Why not do that? Use prisoner labour to build something, rather than spend money throwing that life away.

</font>[/QUOTE]<font color=orange>That sounds all fine and dandy, but what about that guy or gal who was working a construction job you just put out of work, so prisoners could do something constructive.

In the late 1800's the State of Tennessee went to the Coal Companies and offerred them prison labor to dig coal at a very cheap price. The Coal Companies, seeing what a good deal this was, got rid of all their coal miners (who made less than a pittance) and put these prisoners to work. Needless to say the miners didn't take this laying down and war between the out of work miners and the Coal Companies broke out in the East Tennessee Mountains, with the prisoners caught in the middle. This was one of the things that stated the UMW (United Mine Workers). I figure much the same thing would happen all over again if you were to do that. </font>[/QUOTE]You spend the government money to pay the workers to build something else. It ADDITIONAL labour, not replacement labour. Have you seen the state of New Yorks roads? Subways? They need all the help they can get.

If it's additional think of what could be accomplished. Why think of it in terms of replacement? With construction or roads or whathaveyou, unlike coal, you're not going to run out.

Alternatively, you could license out all plumbing work to prisoners and pay the existing plumbers to train and supervise. What plumber would prefer to NOT swim in excrement, and yet still get top dollar? ;) Give the prisoners implants so they can't escape or run away and set them to work.

Simply ideas that's all.

But think of all that manpower. That energy, untapped. Strong, energetic humans with a debt to society either being exterminated or rotting away doing nothing.

How about putting prisons on the electricity grid. Setting up treadmills and weights in prisons so that they produce electricity for the nation.

While we're at it, why not hook up every Gym as well?? All that human energy going to waste!!!

The Japanese had the idea (although they were barbaric in the extreme in it's application) they set prisoners of war to work on the Burma railway. Stalin had prisoners work the salt mines. Which was actually a death sentence.

Now, I'm not advocating barbarity and abuse, as human rights should bery much be in effect. Set up rewards systems. Time off sentence or rest rewards for good behaviour.

But still, scrap the death penalty and put all that energy into constructive endeavour.

Oh my god, I'm about to agree with Yorick. Eeeek! [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

<font color=orange>You also get piss poor work, because they aren't going to give a crap about how they do things. It would be like a draftee army trying to do the job of professional army. Professional is always better.

There is also that little thing called Public safety. Would you feel comfortable in letting Crips, Bloods, Vice Lords, Mexican Mafia, Neo-Nazi riff-raff out working on the street in front of your home? Most people are probably going to be a little leery of that. Most states have work details. I was in Stony Fork, Tennessee three weeks ago and saw a prison crew digging a grave. There were 7 or 8 prisoners and one guard armed with a pistol. Now these guys aren't rapists and murderers, which is what we are talking about, but probably theives, forgers or drug dealers. They don't allow the Death Row guys or the lifers out to do that kind of work, but that's what you are advocating.

If you want to reform prisons and make them institutes for rehabilitation, then in my opinion, you have educate the convicts. If they don't have a high school diploma, then they should be required to get their GED and then either take college course work or some sort of trade school, before they are allowed out on the street. At the sametime they should also take socialation courses, anger management courses and/or drug rehabilitation ( if they need it). Then they should be required to find a job and pay the Government for their education... like a student loan. They could remain on probation until their "loan" is paid off.

But that still doesn't take care of the death row inmates or the lifers. IMO, if they are sentenced to life in prison or death, then that's where they stay. They have been judged a menace to society and they should remain behind prison walls till they are dead one way or the other.

Which brings me to another point, Isn't a life sentence the same as death? Either way you ain't going to get out of prison alive. One is more cruel than the other. Care to take a guess which it the worst sentence? Some of you here say a Death Sentence is just a form of revenge, but isn't locking some one up in a 6'x9' cell for the rest of that their natural life and never letting them out revenge also?

<font color=lime>Sir Taliesin, you should close your HTML tags. ;) </font>

It costs money to excecute people.

In any case, turn it around. Put lifers into work that benefits society. Societies of old made prisoners row galleys, or work mines, or build roads.

Why not do that? Use prisoner labour to build something, rather than spend money throwing that life away.

</font>[/QUOTE]<font color=orange>That sounds all fine and dandy, but what about that guy or gal who was working a construction job you just put out of work, so prisoners could do something constructive.

In the late 1800's the State of Tennessee went to the Coal Companies and offerred them prison labor to dig coal at a very cheap price. The Coal Companies, seeing what a good deal this was, got rid of all their coal miners (who made less than a pittance) and put these prisoners to work. Needless to say the miners didn't take this laying down and war between the out of work miners and the Coal Companies broke out in the East Tennessee Mountains, with the prisoners caught in the middle. This was one of the things that stated the UMW (United Mine Workers). I figure much the same thing would happen all over again if you were to do that. </font>[/QUOTE]You spend the government money to pay the workers to build something else. It ADDITIONAL labour, not replacement labour. Have you seen the state of New Yorks roads? Subways? They need all the help they can get.

If it's additional think of what could be accomplished. Why think of it in terms of replacement? With construction or roads or whathaveyou, unlike coal, you're not going to run out.

Alternatively, you could license out all plumbing work to prisoners and pay the existing plumbers to train and supervise. What plumber would prefer to NOT swim in excrement, and yet still get top dollar? ;) Give the prisoners implants so they can't escape or run away and set them to work.

Simply ideas that's all.

But think of all that manpower. That energy, untapped. Strong, energetic humans with a debt to society either being exterminated or rotting away doing nothing.

How about putting prisons on the electricity grid. Setting up treadmills and weights in prisons so that they produce electricity for the nation.

While we're at it, why not hook up every Gym as well?? All that human energy going to waste!!!

The Japanese had the idea (although they were barbaric in the extreme in it's application) they set prisoners of war to work on the Burma railway. Stalin had prisoners work the salt mines. Which was actually a death sentence.

Now, I'm not advocating barbarity and abuse, as human rights should bery much be in effect. Set up rewards systems. Time off sentence or rest rewards for good behaviour.

But still, scrap the death penalty and put all that energy into constructive endeavour. </font>[/QUOTE]This is all well and dandy, but you're missing a few major points.

1) We already have programs like this implemented...they work very well...this is not a new concept.

2) We are talking about sociopathic murders and rapist here. People who molest little children. I don't want any of those animals within 100 yards of open ground. They are in maximum security prisons for a reason...your proposal is (once again) and ideal solution for an unideal world.

LOL! You're quite the conservative aren't you. Keep things the way they are. Just keep your head in the sand under the guise of "realisim".

Ever heard of chemical castration Pickachu? Achievement of the ideas is not the issue, its deciding to achieve them that are the issue. Imagine if people like you were around the Wright brothers, or Eddison, or Columbus? Or Ghandi? Can't do, can't do.

I make no apologies. I'm a "can do" person. Faith. Where there is a will there's a way. I live my life in faith. I see "the impossible" achieved regularly.

"Once again an ideal solution for an unideal world"..... Where do you get off saying that mate? I am part of this world. Idealism, and idealists, visionaries and dreamers are a part of this world. Without visionaries and idealists we would still be using stones to hunt animals and living in caves.

THINGS DO NOT HAVE TO BE THE WAY THEY ARE.

Society was not always and will not always be as it is.

Have you heard of that place called Australia? It was BUILT by convicts, deemed unfit for English society and expelled to the other side of the world. Prisoners. Theives and killers some, impoverished bread stealers the unfortunate others.

The reality remains that an entire country exists because prisoners were set to work building it. Descendents of these "uneductated swill" are now being called in to teach American and English students because the citizens of the respective nations aren't doing the job properly. ;) :D