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ok, this is not meant to be offending anyone, this is just what an impression i have had since the incidents happen, lets start from china:
Pilot #1 Wang Wei: "Report ground! American plane is crashing into me, can I open fire?!" Senior officor sat comfortably zipping a gulp of warm tea, and slowly put down "Ecnomic Times" then said with a half-hearted tone: "what? are you serios? look carefully though, we will have a meeting to discuss it..." Pilot #2: "GROUND! Wang Wei's plane was crashed!! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...les/crying.gif I WILL HAVE REVENGE!!" General: "huh? nah, you cannot do that, think about it, if you open fire, you will be responsible for warfare, do you dare? and don't you forget, there is no missle on your plane!" Pilot #2: "..." lol, ok, here is what happen to US side Secret Anget:" Sir, we just had emergency from China?" Powell looks to president "what do we do sir?" Bush opens his course book, and begin to search China 101 "crap, 'relationship with China' I haven't gone to this chapter yet! I say we execute the teacher who was teaching me this!" Powell turns to the agent :" announce to media, we will have an execution." Someone passing by and overheard the conversation: "hey, hmmm.... don't you guys think you should at least hear what is happening first?" Bush hands clap his forehead as if just understood whats going on :" thats righ! give me a full report tomorrow afternoon, now i am going to play golf with maxican president." Bush Senior rush into the office with haste "SON!! what the hell are you doing! get your ass down, and hear the report!" Bush: "err... sure father, if you say so." <font color ='yellow'> so they heard the report </font> Powell once again looks to Bush : " what we do?" Bush Jr.: " I say we have the execution first." Bush Senior: "NO son! don't you get it? everybody thinks you an idiot, I am afraid even your mother heard that, but now it is your chance! As long as they held our airmen hostage, the congress will join you! everyone will support you! now it is your chance! you MUST act! don' back off from China, show them your ham-fist!" Bush Jr. :" ...can I play golf now?" |
Donut, while I do not agree with you on a few details, I appreciate your sensible comments as a third party.
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Once again, insightful and words of wisdom have been spoken. I am speechless (again).
------------------ Long live H22A1!!!!! |
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you become Lord AO again? |
Yup.....is this good or bad?? http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...s/biglaugh.gif
------------------ Long live H22A1!!!!! |
There is no one on this forum that I hate or even want to flame and if that is how I came off at 1:30 this morning. I apologize. That is specifically directed at you 250. I am sorry if I offended you in anyway.
This topic was originally about the China incident and it generated into what I perceived as US bashing. I also admit that in the past my government has made some horrible mistakes. One that I can think of, in my life time, is the support of the Shah of Iran and I sure others of you, out there can think of other examples as well. But what does this have to do with China. We do think of China as a competitor economically, much as we think of the EU. The difference is the EU nations are also our allies and China is not. We can embrace old enemies as allies. We have with Germany and Japan. But I, personally don't ever see China being our ally as it exists today. I would be very ashamed of our government if we ever embraced a government that gave us Tianiman Square or supported a regime like Po Pot in Cambodia. Imagine if you will, that we all live under a government like the People's Republic of China. Where you have to have permission to have Internet access. Where that access is monitored 24 hours a day. Where school children don't go to school to get an education, but rather make fireworks, so some military officer can make a lot of money. Where ethnic groups are suppressed and in some cases ethnically cleanized (Tibet). Where there is no freedom of religion. Where religion isn't even allowed. Where peaceful movement like Fo lun Gong (sp) are brutally suppressed. Where people cannot congregate at a gathering unless it is state sponsored. Where people like Llewellyn H. Rockwell Jr. can't express their opinions with out going to jail for twenty years. Where you don't get to choose your profession, but the state chooses it for you. Where you cannot travel abroad without government permission, and when you do, your family is held hostage until your return. Where books are banned or heavily censored and ideas aren't freely exchanged. Where AD&D or Baldurs Gate cannot be played. Would we all like to live like that? What about it? Sound like a good place to live? Not to me. I couldn't live that way. I know that there are many other countries that are this way, even some that are so called democratic nations! I know that my own country has had, and in some cases continues to have problems with some of these things. All nations had them and continue to have them. No one nation is exempt! However I would give anything to make sure my children continue to have what I do. Even my life if necessary. Sometimes that means my nation has to do things that I or others don't like. Like gathering intelligence on another nation, or spying as some of you wish to call it. We do this, so that maybe someday, if it should ever come to it (and God forbid that it ever does) we have the upper hand in a war. So that we can win. After all is that not the objective of a war; to win. In some cases, that might be to save your nation. Such as what happened during WWII. If you all recall your history, we were attacked by Japan at Pearl Harbor. With proper intelligence that might never have happened. Maybe what we needed was a "spy plane" flying up and down the Japanese coast that would have told us they more moving out a large fleet of ships to attack not only us but the Philippines, Malaysia and New Guinea . We could have possibly headed off those attacks with a diplomatic effort. Possibly saved millions of lives that were lost in the war. Of course if that had happened, we all might be greeting each other with "Heil Hitler" or bowing to the Emperor. I don't think that would be except able. That was a lesson that my country will never forget (I hope). Does anyone here think that it could happen again? Except this time it could be Taiwan with its population in the millions. These people have lived in a democracy (maybe not a perfect one, but is there really such a thing) enjoying freedoms that most of us here enjoy, for over 50 years. Would it be fair to them for us, as a world, to turn our backs on them if they where about to be attacked. To become some warlord's slaves, making products for the rest of us around the world to use. Maybe, just maybe, gathering intelligence on what I call a totalitarian government isn't such a bad thing after all. I personally feel that it is a job that must be done. The arguments about who was at fault in the accident will never be settled. Were any of us there? The only ones I know for sure are the 24 US personal on the plane and the two Chinese F-8 pilots. It's one sides word against the other. I can think of another reason for the collision between the EP-3 and the F-8. What about a sudden down draft or a strong wind. All of us that have flown on a plane have experienced turbulence, where the craft goes up and down, and side to side, sometimes hundreds of feet. That could have happened, just as a number of things could have happened. None of us will never know, because we weren't there. We can set and argue this back and forth and never settle anything. As far as an apology. I don't think it will ever happen. I personally don't think it should happen. There was an incident and a man died and that is very tragic and I hope all will accept our condolences. But I think that the only reason the Chinese want an apology is to grandstand. They were the ones that blew this out of proportion. Not the US. We simply asked for our plane and our crew back. We don't really expect the plane back, but we had to ask. For those of you that took the time to read all of this. Thank you very much! This is what I believe and I will not change my opinion, unless someone can prove me wrong. If I changed your opinion, fine. If I didn't, then that is fine too. I don't not ever want to dictate to someone else how they should feel and neither do I want to be dictated too. I never have claimed to be a great debater and I wish I were more articulate, but I am just an average person of average intelligence. I wouldn't want to be anything else. ------------------ Sir Taliesin Ten Rings there are, and nine gold torcs on the battlechiefs of old... |
well, Sir, I am from china, while some of you said is true, some are not. Think about it, I am abroad, and my parents visited me six times in the past three years, they hadn't been held hostage http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif
sure, you don't get to say everything you wanted in china, and I am afraid that is just an reality so hard to change right now. lets not get into wether is neccesary or not. I had computer in china, and I had internet access. was it monitored? well, i am not sure. but there are thousands of "computer bars" out there in the streets (every major city). one only needs to pay a few dollars, and one can stay there as long as he wants. and they all have access to internent, if one wants to monitor all these computers, I think it is very huge a job with little benefit. also, some internet access is restricted, such as pornagraphical ones, which i think it should be. I am educated from chinese school, and I know well that state does not choose your profecion. sure, there is a lot difference between chinese education system and US ones, but one is not neccesserily better. you mentioned Pearl Harbor being bombed by Japan. well, if one talks about historical incidents, one should not talk it out of context. Japan was expanding at that time, their military forces invaded/occupied many asian countries. this, at the same time, was harmful to US's control over east asia. US would join the war against Japan sooner or later, and that was why Japan started fire first. It was UNAVOIDABLE due to the confrontation of two nation's interests. however, look what China had done? in the past 50 years, China had only confronted US militarily twice. one was Korean War, another was Vietnam War. Both warfares happened near Chinese mainland, shouldn't a country properly interfere when a war had a great possibility to do harm to its people? I think yes, and the actions were justified. After all, don't send your army here, and we are fine. so why the US began to constantly spying on China? China had no interest of going to war with US. I, as a Chinese, saw what is needed for china. Chinese people are still below average standard of richness, China needs to develope economically as well as its people's idea of democratic, liberty, and freedom of speech. If there is one thing China doesn't want now, it is war with US. However, US had been constantly sending military aircraft along Southern China sea. The purpose while mostly remained secret, was obvious obtaining information for its unfriendly nearby countries. I mean, WHY?? does that mean, US want every chinese to extinct from this earth? does that mean US want every chinese to suffer as long as US exists? does that mean every chinese to live under its shadow in their lives? cannot the two countries sit down and talk like normal people? Competitor, a shameful declaration. Spy, a poor excuse. we all should think and reason, like a rationa being we are. we all should look into our own faults before defend our actions and point our fingers lets pray there be no war [This message has been edited by 250 (edited 04-09-2001).] |
by the way, you can play AD&D and Baldur's Gate
before I came to US, I played Diablo I, and Starcraft... good games. Quake were very popular in China as well. Hard to imagine, huh? http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif |
I don't think it can end this way, America has retaliated with the opinion that the whole "holding back thing" has become more of a hostage type of action rather than just common sense questioning - which I think China has done all along.
China has been pretty patience up to now, but my Dad told me something about America sending in troops demanding an explaination for the delay in releasing the people. Is sorry such a hard word to say in the world? Maybe having power isn't everything after all. The Old Saying: Too much of a good thing = Big head. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif ------------------ http://www.gis.net/~yos/lichwah.gif Greetings mortals, my name is Wah, Arch Lich Wah. |
yes
I ve already heard lots people say: the one with power cannot be reasoned with. onyl stronger power can submit him. I certainly don't hope this happens |
Sorry to be so late in responding. My internet was down at home.
250 thank you for correcting some of my ignorant thinking. I hadn't realized that your country was that open. especially after what we all saw happen at Tienamin Square (sp). I was in shock when your government sent the tanks in against the peaceful students and academics that were demonstrating peacefully. Still I have to ask if your family belongs to the party. You seem to have a lot of freedom when compared to what we hear in the west, through our news. I really don't think we need to worry about war. I doubt seriously that we would send in troops over this. This will be settled diplomaticlly. It would truely be a stupid thing to start a war over. I also don't think there will be an apology from us over this. You all must remember something else about our government. We have three branches of government here. The Executive Branch which is the President, The Legislative Branch which is the House and Senate and the Judical Branch which are our judges. These Branches are all roughly equal in power. Bush runs the Executive branch. He will be under a tremendous amount of pressure from the House and Senate to take stronger action against China the longer this thing goes on. I don't think that would be military, but economic in nature. He will resist it for a while, but not forever. There have already been calls for overturning China's Most Favored Trading Status in both the house and the Senate. Have nice night 250. ------------------ Sir Taliesin Ten Rings there are, and nine gold torcs on the battlechiefs of old... |
Originally posted by Sir Taliesin:
Sorry to be so late in responding. My internet was down at home. no problem http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif 250 thank you for correcting some of my ignorant thinking. I hadn't realized that your country was that open. especially after what we all saw happen at Tienamin Square (sp). I was in shock when your government sent the tanks in against the peaceful students and academics that were demonstrating peacefully. yes, me too. but I was small back then, I had no idea what was going on. from what I heard... well, i heard lots of things Still I have to ask if your family belongs to the party. You seem to have a lot of freedom when compared to what we hear in the west, through our news. yes, my father. media reports a lot of things. some tend to spread horroable news, because people like to hear them. some though, talk about others' fault, which can be true, so that locals can have a sense of "better". some do report truth objectively. I really don't think we need to worry about war. I doubt seriously that we would send in troops over this. This will be settled diplomaticlly. It would truely be a stupid thing to start a war over. I also don't think there will be an apology from us over this. it is indeed a stupid reason to start a war, but is "sorry" such a hard thing to say? I noticed you apologized to me, even though I hadn't demanded or accused you in slight manner. so ask yourself, what were you thinking when you said "sorry" then, would you not do the samething, if you are to be responsible for someone's death. China talk about polite, respect, and self-respect. Saving face is a thing of government and politics, but its people want an apology just to have their hurted feelings ease. You all must remember something else about our government. We have three branches of government here. The Executive Branch which is the President, The Legislative Branch which is the House and Senate and the Judical Branch which are our judges. These Branches are all roughly equal in power. Bush runs the Executive branch. He will be under a tremendous amount of pressure from the House and Senate to take stronger action against China the longer this thing goes on. I don't think that would be military, but economic in nature. He will resist it for a while, but not forever. There have already been calls for overturning China's Most Favored Trading Status in both the house and the Senate. I doubt it is really a good thing for either china or america to remove China's Most Favored Trading Status. however, US had already sending armies into pacific, some ahd already arrived numerous US bases at east asia. I don't know man, would Bush really give the word to attack? just for the sake of not wanting to admit what he had done is wrong? I would certainly be disappointed and pained to see that happen. remember, war or not, the government's action is causing hatred and misunderstanding between two people. Have nice night 250. you too http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif |
I love this board. Long live international understanding!
------------------ O.K..... what do I do now? http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! |
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Ziroc |
I have a China crisis, all my crockery is cracked http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif
------------------ http://website.lineone.net/~swhite10...ile/knight.gif Holy Avenger of the OHF and part time Pinguindiebjäger HATS for sale baby! Sponsored by Yorick Your ad here? Call 112 -221 -123 |
Sir_Tainly
LMAO! That truly is a china crisis http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...smiles/485.gif ------------------ http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant, than open it and remove all doubt! |
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Thought this thread required a little humour, seemed to be getting too heated last time I visited. ------------------ http://website.lineone.net/~swhite10...ile/knight.gif Holy Avenger of the OHF and part time Pinguindiebjäger HATS for sale baby! Sponsored by Yorick Your ad here? Call 112 -221 -123 |
I use to live in hawaii 10 minutes WALKING distance to where the japanese planes were first spotted and it is on the completely opposite side of the island from where pearl harbor is so Japan just flew straight through all the towns that had no military protection except for a few crappy little bunkers which couldnt have been big enough for radar because I used to play in the abandoned ones all the time and their hella small.Anyway like 2 hours later they are bombing pearl harbor and the navy got slaughtered because of not knowing where the enemy was coming from.Still with me? well thats the reason why the U.S.A. has to use the spy planes so we dont get our ass handed to us again and thats why bush is not going to apologize because it was necessary and every country does it.
------------------ RULE #1:I am always right RULE #2:See rule #1 |
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LOL |
this point has been disproved before you came:
you mentioned Pearl Harbor being bombed by Japan. well, if one talks about historical incidents, one should not talk it out of context. Japan was expanding at that time, their military forces invaded/occupied many asian countries. this, at the same time, was harmful to US's control over east asia. US would join the war against Japan sooner or later, and that was why Japan started fire first. It was UNAVOIDABLE due to the confrontation of two nation's interests. however, look what China had done? in the past 50 years, China had only confronted US militarily twice. one was Korean War, another was Vietnam War. Both warfares happened near Chinese mainland, shouldn't a country properly interfere when a war had a great possibility to do harm to its people? I think yes, and the actions were justified. After all, don't send your army here, and we are fine. so why the US began to constantly spying on China? China had no interest of going to war with US. I, as a Chinese, saw what is needed for china. Chinese people are still below average standard of richness, China needs to develope economically as well as its people's idea of democratic, liberty, and freedom of speech. If there is one thing China doesn't want now, it is war with US. However, US had been constantly sending military aircraft along Southern China sea. The purpose while mostly remained secret, was obvious obtaining information for its unfriendly nearby countries. I mean, WHY?? does that mean, US want every chinese to extinct from this earth? does that mean US want every chinese to suffer as long as US exists? does that mean every chinese to live under its shadow in their lives? cannot the two countries sit down and talk like normal people Pearl Harbor is not a good excuse |
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He is not apologizing for spying! Of course every country does it that is obvious. China is demanding an apology b/c they think our plane caused their plane to crash. And we think their plane caused ours to crash. That is why both sides are looking for an apology! And as for Pearl Harbor. I do not think we need to worry about that now. We have these things called satelites! We are not worried about a sneak attack. There is absolutely no way Pearl Harbor could reoccur!!! ------------------ http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant, than open it and remove all doubt! |
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WW2 in other theatres US Isolationism US Attitudes towards Japan's Actions in Manchuria / China Tripartite Axis co-operation Japanese Imperial Ambitions Besides Pearl Harbor could have been avoided with better radar equipment and procedures, given the attackers were spotted on radar, but were assumed to be B-17s from the mainland. ------------------ http://website.lineone.net/~swhite10...ile/knight.gif Holy Avenger of the OHF and part time Pinguindiebjäger HATS for sale baby! Sponsored by Yorick Your ad here? Call 112 -221 -123 |
About my earlier post it was 7:10 a.m. and I had been up since 12:00 noon the day before and was gonna ask some baldurs gate 2 question but I was so wasted and tired I forgot what it was and somehow I ended up with the pearl harbor ranting which even I cant see any relevance to the subject of the thread.(then again there have been alot of unrelated u.s.a. would win because.....messages)And when I said bush is not gonna apologize I forgot to add that I think he should.
------------------ RULE #1:I am always right RULE #2:See rule #1 |
250
I think it is because Whenever China says and does US will always see them a communists And Somehow the US see communism as bad Now I'm not saying Chinese Communism is good Buit communism as system if worked out well is the best system in the world Not the US cannot see that as they are THE Kapitalist Country No country is so rich but also has so many poor people That is worked out much better in Scandinavia But This is a Time of peace China is Part of the UN so there is no reason to distrust them Holland isn't spying on belgium becoz they freed themselfs 200 years ago What's in the past should remain there ------------------ http://content.communities.msn.co.uk...&ID_Message=66 |
I think it is because
Whenever China says and does US will always see them a communists And Somehow the US see communism as bad Umm thats been US Policy from the 1950s, part of the premise of the cold war. Now I'm not saying Chinese Communism is good Buit communism as system if worked out well is the best system in the world As with many things conceptually fine, but fails in practice due to human nature Not the US cannot see that as they are THE Kapitalist Country No country is so rich but also has so many poor people That is worked out much better in Scandinavia Strict levels on immigration controls may have something to do with this But This is a Time of peace China is Part of the UN so there is no reason to distrust them So was Russia during the Cold War Holland isn't spying on belgium becoz they freed themselfs 200 years ago What's in the past should remain there Can you be sure? close proximity, and similar economies make them rivals for trade etc. ------------------ http://website.lineone.net/~swhite10...ile/knight.gif Holy Avenger of the OHF and part time Pinguindiebjäger HATS for sale baby! Sponsored by Yorick Your ad here? Call 112 -221 -123 |
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Image No Greed No Hunger No Crime Equal Changed But there are always people Who want to have more than others And thus Communism doesn't work That's a Damn Shame ------------------ http://content.communities.msn.co.uk...&ID_Message=66 [This message has been edited by Rikard (edited 04-10-2001).] |
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------------------ http://website.lineone.net/~swhite10...ile/knight.gif Holy Avenger of the OHF and part time Pinguindiebjäger HATS for sale baby! Sponsored by Yorick Your ad here? Call 112 -221 -123 |
In addition if I sound like a dumbass and dont know what I am talking about just tell me to shut the hell up and dont quote my message it messes with my head and makes me think I have posted the same crap more then once and then I am like a jackass x2..........I still have not slept since my first message on this thread so this message probably sucks too.I might make it in to guiness for staying awake the longest though.
------------------ RULE #1:I am always right RULE #2:See rule #1 |
Caleb get some sleep dude, you not being coherent. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif
I quote to show to whom I replying, good practice in busy forums. If you're staying awake for a guiness, man, aren't there better incentives? ------------------ http://website.lineone.net/~swhite10...ile/knight.gif Holy Avenger of the OHF and part time Pinguindiebjäger HATS for sale baby! Sponsored by Yorick Your ad here? Call 112 -221 -123 |
Creativity
The need to improve The need to get things easier Will always exist That wasn't priority in Russia But in a good working communism There will be people just Creativ minds Because they are good at it ------------------ http://content.communities.msn.co.uk...&ID_Message=66 |
Is it just me or does everyone else think of the fake "alabama man" commercial from south park when John D Harris post a message.
"Alabama man now with slap up bitch hand action! ALABAMA MAAAAAAAN!" ------------------ RULE #1:I am always right RULE #2:See rule #1 |
How do you get the better stars and titles then other people? and who is lord au and why is he the name you get for six gold stars?
------------------ RULE #1:I am always right RULE #2:See rule #1 |
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Communism is a concept which cannot be put into practice, due to human nature and ambition. ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/genwalk.gif http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memname.GIF |
Caleb--
That is the exact impression I get of JDH http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif As for the stars, you get them as your number of posts increases. Lord Ao is like the God of Gods in the realm of some fictional story ------------------ http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant, than open it and remove all doubt! |
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------------------ http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant, than open it and remove all doubt! |
I am gonna keep posting stupid crap and wont go to sleep till I get a reply from the great memnoch.What the alabama man joke not good enough for even a smiley face or lol memnoch?
------------------ RULE #1:I am always right RULE #2:See rule #1 |
Don't you guy's think i'm pretty wise for a 16 year old????
------------------ http://content.communities.msn.co.uk...&ID_Message=66 |
Well I suppose if you compare yourself to another 16-year old who was accepted in to A.P. history but got kicked out in 2 weeks because I had the suckiest history day project in all the U.S. then I guess you are pretty wise.
------------------ RULE #1:I am always right RULE #2:See rule #1 |
so had so many people believed after the fall of USSR, PR.China would fall short. but history proved them wrong, what they have now is a ever stronger China, with fast growing economy and world-wise-influence.
that proved two things: 1st, Communism isn't necessarily evil. 2nd, what YOU understand about communism isn't 100% correct. however, lets not carry this debate into Communism vs Capitolism. that just makes nationalism sounds all the more correct and make sense. it is not the case here. one thing to point out here: I am not accusing ANYONE being nationalism or whatever here. Personally, I think people like Grey Mage and the Sirs ( http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif ) have a lot of pride, which is not a bad thing. If no pride, comes no courage. I never linked pride with nationalism, clear? I noticed Rickard said: Whatever China says and does US will always see them a communists I believe, most of the people of United States are sensible and minded. However, they have been intentionally misled by certain media and VERY few benefitial group of people. The ones shout that "China is preparing for war" are the ones that can gain from making the war with China. After all, as a normal, rational person, WHO wants a war? I am afraid not everyone is making the rational choice when he increasingly send spyplanes along Southern China sea. I liked one quote Yorick said so very much, it is: about those who would win the war, there is no winner War is the curse of humanity [This message has been edited by 250 (edited 04-10-2001).] |
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