This certainly hasn't stopped some stunningly incompetent things from happening in the field in Iraq.

Problem is, even if the field commanders know what they're doing, they might still be following orders from someone who doesn't have a clue. Or they might be giving orders to someone who doesn't have a clue and passes things on wrong or otherwise screws up. One bad link and the chain is gonna snap.

I mean, if you want some examples, you could have how 300-500 Iraqis were slaughtered in an ill-explained incident a while back. Either we're talking a bunch of heavily-armed insurgents that mysteriously fled from ten lightly armed members of the Iraqi army and took cover in an orchard, or it was a bunch of civilians that were chased into the orchard and then strafed into oblivion without proper target confirmation.

Hell, the poor Iraqi army isn't any better off, either, they got included in the hallowed hall of those suffering from "friendly" fire from US troops. How many is that by now? Italians, British, Canadians, Iraqis... And probably more that we just don't hear about. Competence is missing in many places, and it's apparently not only at the top.

<font color=8fbc8f>Well excuse me, please. I did not understand exactly what you were digging at. Hollywood does a terrible job on re-creating military movies, and the current media cannot tell the difference between a tank and a recovery vehicle.

For the most part, officer/enlisted share the same experiences, hardships, and separations. Long established relationships due to the current force stabilization keep most soldiers together longer today.

Not exactly sure where we are headed with this. But, on my last deployment, my commander lived just like the rest of us, in the dirt. The only RHIP starts at the Flag rank now. Partly due to the transition to the brigade concept, and partly due to the old adage, "mass suffrage".
</font>

So who is winning the arguement? Just curious. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color=8fbc8f>Hey, hey.
So, what is the current state of affairs with the Airborne?</font>

<font color=8fbc8f>Hey, hey.
So, what is the current state of affairs with the Airborne?</font> </font>[/QUOTE]I really dont know lol, I was Marines.

No wonder he's the Lord of Alcohol... :D

As to who's winning, does it matter? We're all sitting here speculating about what might happen, should happen, and none of us, except maybe Felix, will be involved no matter what happens.

<font color=8fbc8f>Charlotte to Fayetteville is not that far! Surely you get the feel of the current state of affairs?

My cousin has attempted to explain to me the philosophy of once/always, but it took working with them before I could see it. Even in retirement, Scott has not lost his Marine soul. Yet most Soldiers fit into their surroundings with ease.</font>

<font color=8fbc8f>Your linked article is valid.

I cannot provide a link, but I can cut and paste.
Not sure if this should go here, but the information is validate-able from many sources, and none of which is national security.

There are a couple that should raise an eyebrow.</font>

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A Brief History Of US/Russian submarine collisions
Here's a short list of known collisions.

1961 USS Swordfish (SSN-579) is on a spy mission in Soviet waters when a Soviet sub surfaces underneath it.

196? A US sub, possibly USS Skipjack, on a spy mission in Soviet waters, collides with a destroyer. Finally made public in a New York Times article in 1975.

July 1965. USS Medregal rams a Greek freighter.

March 1966. USS Barbel rams a freighter near North Vietnam.

December 1967. USS George C. Marshall (SSBN-654) is grazed by a Russian sub.

October 9, 1968. This appears to be the historical precedent for the Kursk sinking. A Russian sub operating normally collided with an unknown sub in the Barents sea, leaving a sizable hole in the Russian sub. Russian intelligence notes the arrival of a damaged sub in a Norwegian port a few days later.

November 1969. USS Gato's sail hits the hull of a soviet sub.

March 14, 1970. USS Sturgeon bashes her sonar dome against a Russian sub's sail.

June 1970. USS Tautog is rammed by Black Lila. It is erroneously assumed at the time that Black Lila sank.

March 1971. An unnamed US sub operating 12 miles off of the Soviet coast collides with a Russian sub. Reported in the New York Times in 1975.

Mid-1971. USS Dace hits a Russian sub in the Mediterranean.

Late 1971 or early 1972. USS Puffer is trailing a Soviet sub when the Soviet sub unexpectedly dives, bumping into Puffer.

March 1974. USS Pintado rams a Soviet missile boat while on a spy mission in Soviet waters near Petropavlovsk. Reported in the San Diego Evening Tribune in 1975.

November 3rd, 1974. USS James Madison hits an unknown Russian Victor class attack sub in the North Sea. Reported by columnist Jack Anderson.

1981. HMS Sceptre is trailing a Russian sub and rear-ends it.

October 1986. USS Augusta, while testing a new computer sonar system to make detecting enemy subs easier, rams a Soviet sub. The Augusta claims they rammed a Delta class. Others report it was a Yankee missile boat that subsequently sank.

December 24, 1986. HMS Splendid and a Soviet sub were trying to dodge out of each other's way when they collided. HMS Splendid's towed sonar array became tangled in the other sub and was lost.

February 11, 1992. USS Baton Rouge hits a Soviet sub near Murmansk. For the first time, and in response to Yeltsin's demands, the US Navy publicly acknowledges the collision.

March 20, 1993. USS Grayling with a Russian sub in the Barent's Sea.

Okay. I now I'm just a stupid civilian and can't match your great military intellect, but hopefully you can clear something up for me. From what you just said, I infer that it was the result of a ramming, probably an accident, something not unheard of with marine forces. So they collided with the Kursk, then went back to port to refit, rather than repair, as indicated above? Or has the US developed some sort of metal impervious to kinetic force?

Also of note is that a ramming is inconsistent with the sequence of events reported elsewhere. "...an explosion ripped through the bow of the boat, followed by a second, more powerful blast two minutes and fifteen seconds later..." does not sound like a ramming. It sounds like the crew accidentally detonated a torpedo on board, which caused a fire, which subsequently detonated the payloads of the other torpedoes. But then again, I'm just a stupid civilian, aren't I?