Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">You have a good point that the media only focuses on the worst case scenarios. You're also right that many people play these games and don't commit such acts. But your own example points out a "middle ground" that is overlooked in these discussions.

How many people get "amped" up by these games, then get into some type of accident because they were driving their real car the way they drive their virtual car? How many kids and/or young adults play these games, then maybe get in an argument with someone at school or the local hangout and punch the person instead of just walking off cause their character in the video game doesn't take sh.. of anybody?

Aggressive behavior rarely results in the worst case scenario, but can easily result in dozens of minor incidents that never get reported or receive any attention. Yes, some people are aggressive already and the game only reinforces that, but for many, the game is a cathartic release because they are NOT normally agressive and the game allows them to vent their frustrations against virtual characters. That may be well and good in the game setting, but the more they play, the more they may decide to take real action against whatever situation is causing their anger and frustration to begin with. You play a character long enough, you will have a tendency to start copying that characters behavior when r/l situations mirror game situations.</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Best post of the thread for being both simple and accurate.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Accurate? based on what? More accurate than Yorick's posts of studies that contradict what Jaradu posted? If so, why, and by what criteria do you make that assessment?

Or is it simply accurate to you because you agree with what it says?

I'm not trying to start a larger conflict, but I do feel that the questions posed are fair.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Fair enough. Thanks for posting. All the information I had was that all studies found links.

But then there are folks with vested financial interest in violent games/films being able to have zero consequences, while pandering to the base human instincts and entertainment/stimuli addiction.

Much in the same way that it was "inconclusive" for decades that tobacco caused lung cancer or damage to unborn kids.

I side with the studies proving links, as they make sense considering the line linked to the first post I made concerning imitative behaviour, and socialisation behaviour developed through game playing.

When studies prove than game playing does not teach children/adults about social interaction, then I shall concede.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Because it agrees with your position already?
I thought you were finished? "Happy being right" and all.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Yorick is on permanent Ignore so I usually don't read his posts. I went back took a look and realized I've read alot of those before. Long story short, I came to this thread having already studied the subject quite thoroughly.

I also have an IQ above 130 and I slept at a holiday Inn last night. :P

What makes you so qualified to ask? Do you like internet forum conflict like some folks around here?

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

What makes anyone qualified to ask anything at all?
The lack of information. People naturally want to fill in the empty spaces.

Claims to any kind of IQ over the internet are equivelent to the "My dad can beat up your dad arguement". And sleeping at a holiday inn has little to do with anything. If anyone seems to like stirring things up, it seems to be you.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I think the big picture is that elements of life affect who we are and what we do.
Yes we have individual responsibility with what we do with the experiences. We cannot cry "he made me angry" for example. He hurt you, you chose to be angry. Furthermore, what you do with that anger is your decision alone.

However, what we choose to surround ourselves with is also our choice, and if we can learn from others experiences that certain man-made experiences can adversely affect our mood/mental health, making our DECISIONS to be pro-social more DIFFICULT, we should, in wisdom, choose to limit our "diet" of experiences to enhance our mental health.

The problem is, with children, they have not yet gained the wisdom to self regulate their diet. (People grow up with enough problems with their food intake, let alone experience intake.)

It takes a village to raise a child.

Whatever we as a society can do to help parents raise children with better mental health, pro-social values and greater physical health (mental health is linked to physical health), we should do.

I as an artist have personally undertaken to do what I can, in my small sphere to use my art to help people, rather than just make money. Sometimes I make money using my art to promote things that are not helpful to society (like doing a voiceover for a violent game for example).

Where possible, because I have the awareness of the influence art has, I can approach each situation with consideration. It is THIS position which I would ask artists, producers, game designers and directors and authors to perpetually consider. To increase self-regulation, and to consider the effect that their work will have, rather than to just look at the dollar signs.

No-one here has said "ban GTA". What has been suggested is, it would have been simpler to not make such a violent game. And it would. But that takes artists/designers having self-awareness of their influence.

It is encouraging that people like Bono have become increasingly aware of their ability to influence society for good or ill, and so try to choose good.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Total failure to have a sense of humor and to actually add anything to the discussion. Good job making it personal and Welcome to my ignore list.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

And so ignored all the studies you asked to see.

Wow.

Well then, if I'm on ignore you won't see this little message to you. I can say all I like to you and you won't read it.

So this is my message:

Hi Chewbacca, nice to see you. Very glad to see you actually. Hope all's well with you and you family, and that life in Boston is treating you well. I generally have a lot of respect for you, and have enjoyed reading your posts, even when they highly annoy me, for iron sharpens iron as one man sharpens another.

Glad you're flying the flag about small music stores, for I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps we should all bring back vinyl.

Cheers and warmest regards

Yorick.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I wonder what happens if the whole forum is on his ignore list?

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I imagine it would be quite dull.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I believe Chewbacca was poking fun at the series of Holiday Inn commercials where people do things well out of their skill set, but because they slept at a Holiday Inn the previous night, it's all okay. Hence the winking smiley at the end ;)

As for the other parts of the arguments... I can say that I did not anticipate the game having *any* impact on my driving, so when it happened in the real world, I was surprised.

I also noticed that it was different... and the ability to recognize that things are different is not as common as one would hope. I suspect many people may not have noticed the difference, and may have just thought that they were in a mood to have fun (twisty roads) or were surrounded by stupider drivers ('nuff said).

I also confess I have not read Hillary Clinton's It Takes A Village, so I don't know to what extent I agree or disagree with her positions and her nice catchphrase. However, I do *NOT* believe in deferring the responsibility for raising my children *TO* the village... *I* am responsible (along with my wife, of course ;) ), not the village. The village, however, is a support infrastructure for all of us.

Perhaps I'm too me-focused... I'm only really concerned with raising my kids, not other people's. Perhaps later on I'll be concerned with others, but right now, I have my hands full.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Would ever only hear opinions he agrees with. :)

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

It's not a way for parents to have less responsibility, but for those of us IN the village to take greater responsibility for other children in our "village".

Similarly attaching blame to game creators in no way diminishes personal responsibility or removes culpability for an individuals actions. It adds blame rather than dividing it.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Let's keep it civil, every one. Sniping on any side will not help to make one's point.

Thanks for the clarification on the Village, Yorick. I may have to get past my distaste for her to read her thoughts.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">QFT:</font>
<font color="plum">My sincerest apologies, <font color="orange">Chewbacca</font>. I didn't remember the context of your post. I am wrong and I stand humbly corrected. :blush:</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Sniping from me won't be read ;) :D

No worries mate. :)

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">I can give a personal example from my youthful day. A new bowling alley opened in our little town right after I graduated high school. I was there one evening with some of my friends having a good time, but bowling a lousy game. As my game got progressively worse, I got frustrated and started spouting profanity after each ball. This continued for a couple of frames. Finally, one of my friends pointed out that there was a family using the lanes next to us and they had their very young son with them - around 5-6. My buddy said "Uh, you might want to tone your language down a bit." I looked over at the mom and felt like crawling under the table. I had gotten so wrapped up in myself that I didn't pay attention to anyone around me. I was just showing out in front of my friends.

I sheepishly apologized to their mom and tried my best to turn invisible for the rest of the evening.

I could have said "Hey, it's a free country with free speech. I have a right to cuss if I want to." Well, that may be true, but I also have an obligation to NOT have a negative influence on young child if I can avoid doing so.

As for the games in question, I'm really not overly concerned about them falling in the hands of young kids (although that IS a problem). I agree it falls to the parent to prevent that from happening. My concern is more with the young adult crowds, the ones that are wanting to establish their own identity. It is a natural instinct for youths in this group to want to "challenge the system" and a game like GTA4 only feeds that instinct even more. The fact is, young children aren't the ones going out trying to steal cars or shoot police officers. It's the young adults who are usually past the age of parental control that do these things.

While it IS the parent's responsibility to establish a sense of morals and "right and wrong" in their children, the parent can only do so much. I'm certain everyone here can think of at least one person they grew up with that had good parents and a good home, but still ended up doing things they shouldn't and getting in a lot of trouble. Parenting only goes so far.</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Hey Cerek, Thanks. :)

I am concerned when you write stuff like:
How? What is it about the story or structure of the game that causes this "instinct feeding? How do you know this if you have not played the game?


I hear your concerns on the damage to young pysche, and I think Nature provides us with parents and an ever-growing potential for good judgment to alleviate such concerns.

But you stretch the truth of what the game really is and leave out it's many diverse compenents. You refer to it as a crime simulator, it is not. It is rather like a roleplaying game set in a simulated cityscape.

You may commit crimes, but the cops are smart and lethal. "Bangin aint ez"! Being a criminal certainly isn't glorified. Nearly every criminal in the games gets killed or jailed. Getting away from cops can be over-simplistic and easy, but it is obviously a freaking game after all.

GTA 4 is mainly the story of Nico Bellic. Yes, he is a killer, but do you know why? What about the vast setting; it's characters and beauty- complex, hilarious, tragic. Simply Amazing!

Refering to it as a "crime simulator" is a lie at worst and extreme hyperbole at best and is most Def an insult to the people who love and know the game. As such, I would expect strong reactions and skeptical inquiry in response.

Later!

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I love the complete de-validation of second-hand understanding: which is only a primary building block human knowledge is built upon. "Standing on the shoulders of giants" is only possible through learning via analysing other's experiences.

But then, someone else will have to make this point, as Chewbacca will not read my contrasting opinions.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Actually I found it really interesting. First Chewbaca said the 18 yr old wasn't qualified to say why he'd robbed and killed the cab driver.

Now he says that we can't claim how a game will affect us without playing it ourselves?

Is there a note of contradictive logic here?

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Well, I think that it's all relative in a sense. I feel like we're getting a little too hypersensitive in this debate about what is and is not influential in a game. Choosing the "evil" side in many of todays games isn't regarded as taboo, in fact it is encouraged and expected by gamers and develepors alike in the industry. The horde in WoW, the villian in City of Villains, the bad kid in Fable or even the evil alignment in BG2 or NWN's. Many of us will recall that the third dialogue options in our favourite D&D games were usually the "criminal" or "evil" choices. Just from playing NWN2 today I was presented with a dialogue option that read "You die now" and it had the words "Slit his throat" in asterix. If I were RPing an evil character I would have chosen that option (I wasn't it just so happens), but it has no bearing on my own actions. It's worth noting that tons of us here on IW have played these games and still do.

So, while I agree with many of the points being made, and do advocate that the system is needing a total rework, we also need to carry with us a healthy degree of realistic discernment whilst we continue this debate. The kind that seperates fiction from real life, and the actions that may follow it.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">I think most of us would agree that young adults (college age) have a natural desire to challenge the established authority/establishment/what have you. It's part of the process of establishing your own individual identity. Whether it is speaking out against political figures or challenging practices of a professor we feel are unfair, it is an almost instinctive behavior to be not only willing, but eager, to "take on the world". It's all part of the learning process we go through as we grow up. Now, this "challenging authority" is done in different ways and taken to different levels, depending on the individual, but I think each of us can identify a time when we felt it was necessary to "speak our mind" or speak out in protest against something, even when our own friends and/or family may have told us it was a bad idea.

When you add a game that also challenges the rules of society (such as GTA4) to this mix, it can reinforce the feelings a young adult may already be experiencing. The case in question is a pretty good example. The youth didn't set out to kill the taxi driver, he just wanted to see if stealing a taxi in real life was as easy as the game made it appear. It created a curiosity in him and apparantly offered reinforcement of some ideas he may have already considered (stealing a car to see if he could get away with it). I don't think he set out to kill the taxi driver, that was just a tragic turn of events that happened after he found out the game doesn't simulate r/l the way he thought it would. It's like the issues I mentioned to <font color="lightgreen">Bung</font> earlier. How many minor incidents (such as accidents caused by running stops signs or red lights) occur because someone was "amped up" from playing GTA or a similar game. How many fights happen for the same reason that never get reported? Just because they don't result in the worst case scenario doesn't lessen the impact the game may have on the players r/l behavior.

As for the game itself, there isn't any way for me to play GTA4, because I have a regular X-Box and a PS2. Even if it is made for these platforms, the local media store doesn't have a PS2 copy available for rental. However, I have played games with a similar theme, specifically Hitman and Mafia. I could make the same points about Hitman that you make about GTA4. He is a guy just doing a job and most of his targets are other criminals, so what's the harm? I played through about the first 3 missions before I began to really feel uncomfortable with what I was doing. Even though it was a game, I just didn't like the fact that I was RPing a character that was a professional killer. Same thing with Mafia. The "training" portion included beating a guy with a baseball bat. While some of the actual "missions" just involved driving the car and trying to avoid the police, the overall goal of the game was to succeed at criminal activity - and the more I played, the less comfortable I felt about that.

So I can draw on my experiences from those games and apply them to GTA4, since it has similar plots and storylines.</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Cerek,
Your central argument still relies on the words of a sociopath and killer to be taken at face value. This is still not very convincing even when repeated.

The only thing that claims of 'Curiosity caused by GTA' proves is a very sick mind. Anyone who believes a videogame made them curious enough to kill needs all the help we can give in the form of an institution.

As to how much more antisocial behavior is caused by video games? I would have to conclude none. Why?

Simplest put....


and BTW-
Comparing Mafia or Hitman with GTA 4 is a painfully bad comparison for a multitude of reasons.

Sorry dude, but you don't even know 10% of the game you judge.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I just don't get why someone would even read a thread started by someone they have on their ignore list, let alone post in it, all the while ignoring the posts that make their arguments redundant.

Cerek, you're wasting your time. If you do make any logical points that actually offer a view that differs from Chewbacca, you'll be added to his ignore list like Fire and I.

What a way to hijack a thread. :( Makes a mockery of the whole concept of forums.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Well, yes. They do. That I find obvious. Where does game theory come into it? Or is it used in testing violent tendencies? Compare people's scores in Prisoner's Dilemma before and after two hours of video games?

Anyway, I don't see learning as much of a problem in this context. I guess it's possible to learn behaviour models from games, but they are also learned from the real world. And people learn the real-world behaviour earlier than the game behaviour, and attempting to apply game behaviour to the real world results in immediate punishment.
But weren't you arguing that video games make people kill people? That this guy stabbed a taxi driver because and only because he had been playing GTA? Because that's at least what I've been arguing against. There is a difference between "more violent" and "murderous". Video games do not turn you into a homicidal maniac.

I already commented in an earlier post on why we shouln't take the taxi stabber kid's assesment on his motives at face value, but I suppose I can do it again so others won't have to go looking for it.

Firstly, he killed a man. While this does not make him inherently untrustworthy, it means that his view on the matter can't be very objective. He could be trying to avoid blame by saying that the game made him do it.
Secondly, he's talking about his own motivations. I know I can't always say why I do stuff, and from what I've read, people don't often cosciously think of their motivations until afterwards. And if he really only wanted to know if stealing a car is as easy in real life as it is in game, why didn't he first check the internet or something?

On a somewhat unrelated note, Yorick, your analogy sucks. Psychology is a newer science than astronomy, and on the whole, a lot less accurate. And in any case, studies made on the effects of games on people are fewer in number and less conclusive (even withouth Jaradu's input) than studies made on the shape of the planet Earth. The round earth, unlike violence-inducing video games, is also required for several other technologies and theories (such as, say, astronavigation) to work.