<font color="#ffccff">Hate to be a noodge here but...Moral and ethical as judged by what measure? If you don't use God then you use some other subjective and or arbitrary measures. So I am just curious whos measure are you using to judge your reletive morality and ethicalness? </font></font>[/QUOTE]Well having grown up in judeo-christain society a great deal of them come from that source. To boil it down to its most basic "do unto others has you would have them do unto you".

<font color=red>
Hehe, everyone's got single reasons for being an atheist. Ok but they are all defeated by one pro argument or another. If you look at all the pro arguments together, they seem very convincing to me [img]smile.gif[/img] In the end neither side wins ever but there are far more reasons to believe than not to. This thread has been a good learning experience, cheers everyone [img]smile.gif[/img]

Attempt at summary:

Reasons not to believe in a god:
- You have thought about it and no arguments convince you, you accept the possibility though.
- You are too arrogant to admit that anything can be greater than you.
- You are happy as you are and don't need anything more and don't care where we came from. This seems a bit naive to me.
- You believe that the universe has always existed so there is no reason for a creator and in an infinite universe everything happens so life just happpened. This is probably the most convincing atheist argument and this is where faith and personal feeling come into and no amount of arguing can convey that so when you get to this stage you stop debating [img]smile.gif[/img] Personally, I still can't accept that everything became so perfect (I mean the working of nature) by chance. Then I take all the other indications/arguments etc into account. The case for just defeats the case against in my case.
- You don't want there to be a God so you shut out such thoughts.

or any combination of the above

Reasons to believe in a god:
- Arguments mentioned here
- personal logic to convince yourself
- faith based on no evidence or argument just feeling
- gambler's explanation given in the first post
- many millions of people have thought about and feel and know they believe including many genuises like Einstein. Just makes you think whether they may have a point

or any combination of the above
- of course none of these are enough in themselves, except maybe the faith one and many people have argued against one or the other of these but taken all together I think there is a strong case for a god's existance

</font>

Also <font color=green>Magick</font> I think like that too [img]smile.gif[/img] God helps those who help themselves. So true, you can't sit around expecting things to happen, you do it and ask for help/a nudge if you need it [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-22-2003, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

I'm NOT one of god's children. He didn't put me on this planet, my parents did that, and THEY gave me love. It's very simple.

<font color="#ffccff">Ahh well that is a pretty good approach if you ask me, but of course that is just my opinion. So while you reject the idea of a God, it is not a bad thing to take something from those who do and use it as a basis. In otherwords, just becuase soemthing came from a religion, it is not necessarily useless. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] I can live with that (as if you should care ;) )</font>

mmmm this article :Skeptic pitied almost has me convinced to switch sides ;)

I'm NOT one of god's children. He didn't put me on this planet, my parents did that, and THEY gave me love. It's very simple.</font>[/QUOTE]That's very good johnny. Did your parents teach you that? [img]tongue.gif[/img] ;)

I tought myself that, leave my parents out of this, okay ?

<font color="#ffccff">Ahh well that is a pretty good approach if you ask me, but of course that is just my opinion. So while you reject the idea of a God, it is not a bad thing to take something from those who do and use it as a basis. In otherwords, just becuase soemthing came from a religion, it is not necessarily useless. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] I can live with that (as if you should care ;) )</font></font>[/QUOTE]I personally have no problems with religion. As a matter fact looking back historically religion has been a fairly good job of civilizing humans and enforcing social norms. One of the reasons I'm an atheist is that I feel society has advanced to the point were it's possible to move beyond its influence. Like finally putting your childhood security blanket away.

The one thing I do deeply resent though are the attempts but many, mostly conservative, Christian groups to get various state sponsorships for their beliefs. The wall separating the Church from the State should be so tall and wide that even an omnipotent deity can not breach it.

Why do you even care what anyone else thinks? Seems to me that if you don't believe in religious tenets, you really have no earthly reason to care since you don't believe in our version of the final judgement anyway. Hedging your bets there grung? ;) :D

Grungi, watch your language. I know we've had this discussion before and Ziroc has expressly requested that variations of the 'f-word' not be used so please refrain from using 'fck' or anything similar in the future.

Apparently you missed his (and other's) explanations. [img]smile.gif[/img] Basically, God isn't going to take you in if you reject his very existence. If you don't WANT to be saved, you won't be. By not believing in God, you certainly can't believe in his Word or the afterlife he promises, so why on earth would you even care about this? Does it harm you in some tangible way if those 'billion' or so believe something that you can't or choose not to? I don't need you or anyone else to believe for my own sake. My belief stands on its own and frankly, when the end comes, it's only my personal relationship with God that I'm going to need to worry about. ;)

Cerek- nice post! Long, but well written and as concise as it could be! :D I agree, this has been a very good thread with some thoughtful and intelligent discussion overall.

</font>[/QUOTE]But it should! [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#ffccff">The way I learned it, the idea that there is a "place" called hell is not the generally accepted notion in most modern christian beliefs, Hell is being defined as being denied the face of god for eternity, in otherwords when you die, you do not end up with god. Again this may be more jesuit heresy though [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

To me this statement seems naive. One can only be happy if one believes in God? Are you really sure about that? ;) I don´t know if you are a happier man for beleiving in God. Don´t take me wrong here, if you think/feel/believe (not sure which word to use lol) you are happier for beleiving I´m glad to hear it. But do you have any idea if I would be happier if I believed in God? I think not! And I see you have no interest in evolution what so ever. And those researching about it must of course all believe in God then otherwise they wouldn´t want to know how humans developed. If this was true it seems very strange that God is very seldom mentioned in scientific research. Strange isn´t it?

To me this statement seems naive. One can only be happy if one believes in God? Are you really sure about that? ;) I don´t know if you are a happier man for beleiving in God. Don´t take me wrong here, if you think/feel/believe (not sure which word to use lol) you are happier for beleiving I´m glad to hear it. But do you have any idea if I would be happier if I believed in God? I think not! And I see you have no interest in evolution what so ever. And those researching about it must of course all believe in God then otherwise they wouldn´t want to know how humans developed. If this was true it seems very strange that God is very seldom mentioned in scientific research. Strange isn´t it?</font>[/QUOTE]LOL you have a very mixed bag of ideas there. I never said that one can only be happy if one believes in God? Where the hell did I say that? It says "you are happy as you are" this was in no way meant to imply that that is not happy enough or whatever, you're imagining things. I don't know if I am a happier man.
The problem with this thread is I have constantly mixed my beliefs with generally accepted beliefs etc. I'm often not very happy with my life at all but this has no bearing on whether I believe or not and sometimes it seems like vice-versa as well. Among other reasons, believing makes sense so I do.

I mentioned happiness saying that people who believe might be happier that's all.

That's not a very funny sarcastic comment about people studying evolution not wanting to know about it if they don't believe. I don't know what your basis is for saying that. And I don't at all see what point you are trying to make about it being strange that God is not mentioned in scientific research? Why would he be? While science and God can co-exist the aim of science is to find a scientific not a supernatural explanation for things.
Either that was a very mixed-up post you made or I'm a dumbass for not seeing your basis and logic.

I do not have enough information or personal knowledge about any particular religion, so I cannot argue specifics. In general, most of the people I know, who follow a religion, are good people. However, I believe they would be good people regardless of their religion. Do religions make someone a good person? Maybe, but if that were entirely true everyone who was religious would be a good person; I think we can all agree that this is not true. If you kill in the name of a religion, in most people’s opinion, then you are a bad person.

I believe religion and faith is not something that can be dictated. The first definition of faith in webster’s third is: unquestioning belief that dose not require proof or evidence. How can you teach someone about something without the evidence to back it up; in my opinion you cannot. You can teach someone why you believe in something or why others might believe in something, but you cannot teach someone to believe just because you do.

The argument about an after life is also something I believe cannot be taught. Again, there is no evidence to back it up. The only way to find out what happens when you die is to die. As such, it makes it difficult to then relate to others what has happened.

[img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]
I am a father and I teach my children to be good people. That includes being tolerant of what other people believe, even if you personally think they are wrong. I will not push any religion on my children, however I will support whatever decisions they make in the future.

<font color="plum"><font color="orange">Grungi</font> - I'm afraid you may have misinterpreted the last statement of my first post. You claimed that I said God would let you into Heaven because you have lived a good life. That is not true. I said that God judges the person's heart. You say you are a good person and live a good life....I'm sure that's true. But then again, I don't know anybody who claims to be a bad person living a bad life. Everyone thinks they are "good" in their own way. Living a "good life" according to your standards is not enough. Living a "good life" by God's standards is what counts...and even then, it is up to God alone to decide if your life, actions, and deeds have been "good enough".

When I said that God judges a person's heart, I was talking more along the lines of someone like Ghandi. He rejected "organized religion" because of the bigotry and hypocrisy he found in some churches - yet he lived a life that mirrored the teachings of Jesus. Now, according to my interpretation of the Bible - these good works by themselves would NOT be enough to get him into Heaven...only God's Grace could do that. And I acknowledge the possibility that God may have judged Ghandi based on his heart and on his works rather than on his religious affiliation.

In a way, I'm just "hedging my own bets" about the absoluteness of my previous stance. ;) .</font>

<font color=plum><font color=silver>Masklinn</font> - Love and discipline are not exclusive, and punishment for those who willingly reject God's Love and His offer for eternal bliss is not inconsistent with God's Image at all.

I love my children very dearly, but I will still punish them if they disobey me...and I will punish them severely if the incident warrants it. That doesn't mean that I love them any less (although THEY claim it does ;) ). The same reasoning applies to God. He has told us of His Love and offer of eternal Salvation. He has also told us the penalty for rejecting His offer. The choice, however, is left to the individual.

<font color="tan">Timber</font> - I have a great deal of respect for your views, despite the difference in our personal theologies. However, I do find phrases like "looking for something to latch onto" offensive and demeaning. I have also been called "weak-minded" by atheists, because I cannot accept the "horrible reality" of everyday life without the promise of "something better". Both of these statements are blantantly false and extremely arrogant (IMHO). The implication is that you and other atheists are "mentally superior" to poor, weak-minded Christians who simply can't cope with the big, bad world without latching onto some imaginary being for a cosmic security blanket. I understand that the statements aren't intended to be arrogant or demeaning, but that is how they come across.

I also acknowledge that Christians can be just as arrogant when they insist that "you really DO believe in God, you just won't admit it to yourself" or when they feel sad for the simplistically naive view of atheists (as mentioned in the article <font color="coral">Roken</font> provided a link to).

I'm not angered or upset by your remarks, <font color="tan">TL</font>, because I know any offense I may feel was purely unintentional. I'm just trying to point out how they sound from this side.</font>

The first 2 paragraphs have been covered above. I made that point several times that you cannot push true faith onto anyone and this in fact gives a lot of weight to the sheer number of believers out there that they may be onto something.

About afterlife - technically there IS evidence. Well in a court of law a witness account is evidence right? Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, in the same way there are MANY accounts of people who have been diagnosed as clinically dead but their heart restarted minutes or hours later. I have read a book about this. They all give remarkably similar accounts of feeling at great peace and seeing a light at the end of a tunnel. This does not sound like there's nothing does it?
Well place as much weight on this as you want, just saying that technically there is evidence if you call 1st person accounts evidence.

Oh and another good post Cerek.

[ 01-22-2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

I have two things to interject at this point:

1. The title of this thread is a HUGE misnomer.

2. My God can eat your God for breakfast. ALL HAIL CTHULU!!!!!
[img]graemlins/hidesbehindsofa.gif[/img]

<font color="plum"><font color=red>Hunter</font> - Several pages back, you asked about the different versions of the Bible and Qu'ran. <font color="yellow">Yorick</font> pointed out that these were different translations rather than completely different versions...but your original question is still a valid one.

Let me turn the question around a bit. You study martial arts. How do you know the current style you are studying is the "right" one or the "best" one? There are hundreds of different styles (and variations of styles) in existence. How can you truly know you have chosen the best of these options?

You say your training and physical abilities have helped you survive many hostile encounters. That may be true, but the results could have been the same with an entirely different fighting style...and for every move you can do, someone from an opposing school has a countermove.

So how do you know who is right????

The answer is that you choose what suits your personal style the best. The same applies to the different "variations" of Religion in general, and Christianity specifically. I have many good friends that belong to different denominations than I. There is a plethora of "common ground" between our belief systems, but there are also some key differences.

How do I reconcile these differences? I don't!

I have no right to say that somebody else's relationship with God and His Holy Will is "less right" than my own. Just like you can't say your chosen style is inherently superior to somebody elses.</font>

<font color="plum">1. I agree.

2. {haha}I played Call of Cthulu in college. My characters all died quickly and often. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] </font>

<font color=pink>Interesting topic, and dangerous, yes. I only read the 1st post the quick scanned the first page, so forgive me if I reiterate things that were argued in the others.

I am an atheist, and more discreetly than I would like to be, mostly because the town I live in is largely Christian. But as to why I'm atheist...
Just because someone doesn't believe there is a God doesn't mean they don't strive to be good people, obviously. I have morals, and I value them. True, there is no proof that God doesn't exist, but no real harcore proof that he does. If I do something that would be considered a sin, I acknowlege it and move on with my life. But then, what is your point in life if you don't believe in heaven or hell, knowing that you won't go to either when you die? Well, for me, I do what makes me happy, and thats that. I don't worry about commiting some horrible deed and end up being banished to eternal torture in hell, dwelling on something like that is just silly. And I believe the horrible things that happen to our people and country is God's will either, because its cruel. Anyway, its just my 2-cents. People believe what they believe, and I believe God does not exist. If you believe, then good for you, its your choice *shrug*

And I'll always remember Homer Simpson's quote to Flanders: Hey Flanders! While doing my family's taxes I accidently came across an equation that proves God doesn't exist!</font>

Why is the title of this thread a misnomer? I asked one question: why don't you believe? That's basically what it was. Just wanted a discussion on reasons despite all the IMO convincing stuff. If you still think it's a misnomer, you don't know what a misnomer is [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Well, Vaskez, I was poking fun at the number of issues which have been incorporated and the vastness of the topic, all 150 or so posts. I wasn't taking a pot-shot at you, per se.

But, now that you mention it, I happen to know the word misnomer and several others, like asinine. I've been generally decent to you on the various thread, but you're starting to irk me a bit.

Plus, the sheer stupidity of your posts on this topic are, more often than not, astounding. You have the absolute silliest assumption with the notion that the inability to disprove something means you believe it in the face of no real proof. You also seem to think you have the "who made God" thing figured out, yet rather than answer my querry as to how your thoughts on that went, you've posted a lot of rambling BS.

Oh, forget it. There are other threads worth my time. I'll explain life to you when I'm in a better humor.

[img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] Why did you have to introduce the Simpsons to an extreme religious debate, Blue? [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

LOL TL. Yeah my sheer stupidity is what this topic's about. Oooh don't read any more my sheer stupidity might be catching. :D

[ 01-22-2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

Well, as for the first part of your quote, I'm $175/hr. Make the check out directly to "Timber Loftis, Esq., Bhaalspawn" and forward it to:
Canopy Cabin: Protector's Office
#3 Green Lane
Umar Hills, Amn 60610

As for the second, mayhap it's something with you? Just a thought.

As for what query I was referring to: When I mentioned the "who made god" question you said you'd addressed it, along with the "universe is eternal" notion. I actually want to see your thoughts on it. Can you oblige?

Oh yeah I guess it must be with me. I nearly forgot about how annoying I used to be. I guess some of that's coming back. A leapord doesn't change his spots right?

Anyway yeah, whatever, I'll take the blame for pissing people off. And yeah my posts are sheer stupidity for the masses. That's my aim after all. To confuse everyone with stupidity. I mean heh, I better learn to think and argue first right? What did I think wanting to post my very own thread on such a topic that's obviously far above my understanding? :D

You wanna hear more of my stupidity? Well ok I warned ya:

I did address that query but I guess you didn't find it in the mess above I said (in other words)that if you look, nothing we can see can make itself. Not atoms etc. Therefore something that was before everything must have made them. What was before everything? Only that which is infinite. Then I argued that to be infinite and to create an infinite universe you must understand infinity and for that you need an infinite mind. Thus someone with an infinite mind i.e. what we call a God must exist. The only valid counter-argument I have heard to this is that maybe the universe has always been therefore it doesn't need to have been created. I think that's quite convincing but not good enough for me. I don't think that such a perfect nature could have come about without thought. I also don't think millions of people who know they feel God's presence can just be dismissed like that unless you explain their feeling as dillusion which I might do in but not with such a huge occurrence. Anyway neither of those arguments are very convincing on their own maybe but when I look at everything together, it's good enough for me. That is the whole gist of this thread. Not religion, not who is happier and not how you should live. I wanted to know that despite all the arguments I presented why so many don't believe i.e. why people interpret the same argument so differently, some interpret it as convincing some as bollocks.

[ 01-22-2003, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

<font color=pink>Heh, sorry about the Simpsons crack, but it was funny :D

Now, I have lost reason as to why this thread is here. It would be like myself making a thread demanding why people think God exists....just a stupid thing to do.
Now stop the atheist bashing, just cause we don't believe in God doesnt mean we don't have feelings [img]tongue.gif[/img] </font>

Wasn't bashing just questioning. You're too sensitive [img]tongue.gif[/img] Anyway if you made a thread like that, that'd be good. I could participate just by copying/pasting from this thread :D

Well, to retort (and I thank you for the thoughts):

1. I am, as I mentioned earlier, a believer the universe is infinite. The "nothing can create itself" notion does not hold water. If the universe can't create itself, neither can God. If God can be infinite, so can the universe. I think extrapolating the question of "what put me here" to God is a natural personification tendancy that we find evidence of in all human thought.

2. As for the perfection of nature, I point out again that in my view an infinite universe over an infinite period of time will produce every possible thing and combination of things imaginable. Simple definition of infinity.

3. We feel "god's" presence because we are self-conscious. The notion of self-realization and need for a belief in something more and eternal, in my view, result from the same chemical combinations and neural sysnapses that make us fear death - which is an immediate side-effect of sentience.

I simply feel that virtue lies not in accepting the fiction of God, but rather in having the strength of character to realize you will be dirt and still carry on. We simply differ here. I, of course, respect your right to your opinion, and I am glad that there are many religious folk on the planet. But, it's not for me. I love to study religion, especially as it is always a window into history, and I have personally explored many spiritual paths. But, in the end, I think that true spirituality comes with accepting the humbling notion that though our brains are bigger we are no different or more special than any other organism on the planet.

LOL it's so funny how we think the exact opposite.

1. My whole point was that nothing can create itself therefore you need someONE eternal to create it. This one being does not need anything to create it as it always was and will be (beyond our comprehension). This doesn't do anything for you so I'll quit wasting my typing :D

2. Mathematicly that's correct but the Big Bang supposedly happened not that long ago relative to "infinite" time. If you still believe (which IMO requires much more faith than believing in a God) that the universe created itself or was always there then we'll leave it at that.

3. Maybe but I still think sentience is special. It is far more than the instinct and possible imitating capabilities of some animals. I still don't think this feeling would just arise in so many people for no reason.

Last paragraph we disagree the most. I think it's taking the easy option out saying we're just dirt and have no duty or significance to anything greater than ourselves. It's much easier to live how you want than how you would have to live if you believe a religion and want to live by it. It's so much easier just to say you don't care about anything outside your life and the physical domain.

[ 01-22-2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

I dont believe in god,I have no reason to believe in it.

Maybe there is nothing to gain and lots to loose,so what,I wont be knowing that when I'm dead,right.Dunno.And dont really want to bother my head with it,there are more important things to me in my life than believing in something like 'god'.

*goes to see what opinions others have*

Hmm, I find mysle find myself in agreement with TL here... I've often wondered how so many people will say that the universe is infinite in size, yet seem unable to comprehend that the universe might not be finite in time.
Just because we h cannot comprehend this does not mean that it must be some force personified that spawned existence as we know it.

I was going to mention about Pascal but looks like someone had already said this.. as to your original question-
Because I can't will myself to abandon all I have come to conclude myself- maybe if I only listened to views from others it would be possible- but I have come to my own conclusions and views on these matters.

I havent read the whole thread.. long i apologize..

but shouldnt the original question be asked not of athiests but of agnostics?

Athiests are usually just as adamantly firm in their un-belief.. as God worshippers are in their belief.

Why do you need someONE? On a tangent, why not someTWO? [img]tongue.gif[/img] But to the main point why do you assume it must be a "one?"
Also, saying that nothing can create it self, why can't the something always be and always have been etc.? You say the someONE is beyond our comprehension- why can't the something be beyond our comprehension, and able to create things?0

Quote:

3. Maybe but I still think sentience is special. It is far more than the instinct and possible imitating capabilities of some animals. I still don't think this feeling would just arise in so many people for no reason.

Errmm, if we are using the same definition- animals are sentient-.
I'd quote a dictionary but that would involve opening programs and other such strenuous activity on my part.

Quote:

Last paragraph we disagree the most. I think it's taking the easy option out saying we're just dirt and have no duty or significance to anything greater than ourselves. It's much easier to live how you want than how you would have to live if you believe a religion and want to live by it. It's so much easier just to say you don't care about anything outside your life and the physical domain.

So... people should change their ideology to make life harder for themselves?
Woe betide those who let themselves not care about things they can't bring themself to believe in.

I believe that eveyone is wrong in their beliefs, but yet all are somewhat correct. I believe there is something and no matter what we believe in the end we are all going to feel like fools, because none of us was absolutly correct. Atheists included of course. So just pick something you feel comfortable with and go with it as long as it doesn't involve hurting other people.

We should also stop trying to convince everyone that they are wrong and we are right. [img]graemlins/blueblink.gif[/img]

Why can't we all just get along?

Just a small reminder. This can be a touchy subject, but if everyone remembers to debate the points not the person then it should continue just fine.

No more overt (or covert) personal insults OK.

[quote]Originally posted by Vaskez:

Quote:

I think it's taking the easy option out saying we're just dirt and have no duty or significance to anything greater than ourselves. It's much easier to live how you want than how you would have to live if you believe a religion and want to live by it. It's so much easier just to say you don't care about anything outside your life and the physical domain.

The only part of your post I take (small) offense to is this bit, Vaskez. Why assume I have no moral duties. Genesis, Leviticus, Psalms, and the Gospels may be your textual advisors, but Plato, Hegel, St. Thomas Aquinas (yes, a holy man, no less), Nietszche, and many others, including Jesus, Genesis, Leviticus, Psalms, etc. are mine. I live by rules. I spend more time thinking about living the "good life" and getting it right than most people (present company excepted of course).

Just because you have tied your morals to a promise of an afterlife does not mean they are any stronger than mine. On the flip side, I *could* argue I am more noble than you because I need no "carrot" or "stick" to make me be a good person. I simply do what is right because it is right.

I don't think the bible is wrong, per se (though it is often contradictory, but so is the whole of human existence). I just don't think God exists. I think the ancient Jahweh mountain god tribe that became the Hebrews has a lot of good social theory, and actually did a wonderful job putting it into action. And, it was modernized with the Jesus cult that grew into Christianity. But, these things hold no more truth for me than the Tao, which I see as completely compatible.

Sorry, I'm rambling now. But, it is wrong, and mean, of you to think that because someone does not ascribe to a God or an afterlife that they have not moral code.

[ 01-22-2003, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

OK guys I'm out. Obviously the point of a debate is to discuss ideas and give your views and not to try and change other people's views. However I think everyone debates better and for longer if they see that their arguments are good enough to at least have SOME effect on the opposing view. Anyway I see mine are having no effect on anyone whatsoever so I see no point in continuing. I'll leave you to it.

Also it's quite depressing how everyone interprets my arguments as a direct attack to themselves and how they find things insulting all the time. I think this'll be the last time I debate anything on Ironworks for a long time at least.

Just one more thing to TL: I have NOT chosen Genesis, Leviticus etc. for anything. As I've stated at least twice this thread was not intended to promote Christianity etc. I am not a complete believer in the Bible myself as I have yet to work through all the evidence against it. This thread was about existance of a God which IMO is a slightly seperate issue.

[ 01-22-2003, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

Wow. This is why I am a freethinker.I am called an athiest becouse I dont follow a thiest belief or idea. I dont prescribed to god or any other diety. I dont allow my feelings of fear, hatred, love, anxiety, happieness, saddnes, etc. to control my thoughts. Niether do I allow societal needs, like structure, kindness, brotherhood, etc., to control me. We are social animals that evolved in intelegance and needed a way to make sure we had structure, kindness, brotherhood, etc. As a society in whole, I think religion was a good way to control this. It also answered alot of fearfull questions we had about the universe before we had science to explain things in a logical manner. Well, as the first humans were freaking out over a shooting star, so came religion. "Bow down to the light in the sky, for it is all powerfull", I can imagine them saying. People who believe in god and live by faith have my respect. They are usually good, honest, hard working people. A lot of times they are intellects, Yorich for example. There is nothing wrong with this either. I just dont need faith to guild me. To answer the origanal question, someone on here said that it should be tergeted towards agonstics instead of athiests. This is true. I would have something to loose if I chose to follow god. He has to many rules.

Bygons to all here. I have not or will not question any ones faith in god or your belief. The debate with Yorich in the now famous "snowflake thread" was started by me. I felt he was out of line with his comments. He then went on to question my beleaf and what it would take to see the light. This is where I stop. I will not adhere to conversation that ways towards convertion or convincing. He may not intend this, but in my experiance with christians, this is the case in the end.
We have settled I think and I at least have adjurned.