And you're prepared for the casulties (cos there would be casulties) and the resulting body bags? And another set of terrorists waiting to grow up and avenge their fathers?

All well and good in a video game...

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Fear? I know not the meaning of the word. And you can keep that dictionary away from me!

Politicians don't care, they'll do what they think will make them look good now. If it means more trouble later, that's someone else's problem.

but then again, ground forces are actually more precise. they can act on information they find, and if they find another camp or something, they can go after that one too. also, smart weapons are defeated by the bunker. with the right tactics, ground forces can take down a bunker with minimal losses.

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It's simple. Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to heal the injury. The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the injury...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the very life of the Planet? Think how much energy would be gathered! Ha, ha, ha. And at the center of that injury, wil be me. All that boundless energy will be mine. By merging with the energy of the Planet, I will be come a new life form, a new existence. Melding with the Planet, I will cease to exist as I am now. Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every living soul.

http://www.angelfire.com/games3/impg...ephforsite.gif
Super Sephiroth, slayer of the Uber Fluffy, and battle co-ordionator and defender of the HADB clan.

Diplomacy is all and well, but HADB is better!

No, my post were not stupid. My post represent the way that a terrorist would think (or at least how I would think if I was a terrorist). The bottom line is that terrorism,just like war,is really stupid and there's not way to prevent it or to cure it but to kill every body. Which is of course totaly inhuman.

Don't worry, I'm not a "bad guy" I'm a good guy trying to make understand the bad guy mentality to others.

Mind you, logicaly, ethicaly and professionnaly, shoothing down any hijacked commercial airliner flying over the US today would have been the proper course of action to save lives. It would have taken someone with really cold feelings to give the order but it's an order that should be given.

Hmm... much as I hate to admit it, Billikins, I see your point. Damn... I really don't know. *sigh*

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Lord of the RaBid Fruit Trees. ChAos rules all! Bwahahahaha...
:1drgat1:

Yes Billikins I am prepared for casaulties. I am a former Marine. I have no doubts they are ready to go right now. They may not be called upon but I can assure you they are ready. A MAU is one of the highest trained units in the Marine Corps. BTW we are bombing Afghanistan RIGHT NOW BRB

LofA! I am seeing that right now on the news re Afghanistan! You really think that is us?

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http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/stealthy/KungFuGal.gif http://exit3.i-55.com/~casual/Ladyzeke/Ladyzekke.gif

Not within the next few weeks. They are expecting retaliation. They'll be waiting for you. If you send someone in, they'll make sure to keep one or two survivors to return home and act as propaganda... the rest will be in body bags.

Bomb the camp a few time over the next few weeks then, 4-6 months from now, send in the pros to cut the troaths... but again, that will not solve the problem. It will only rassasiate public opinion.




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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

Hmmmm ok cnn said someone reported missiles and now theres a big fire in Kabul. No telling if we did it, theres anti-Taliban elements there too. So who knows at this point, I jumped the gun sorry

Woopss my bad, I meant the ideals within your post ie bombing them- which I think was just happened- were stupided Ideals.
But I have to say shooting the planes down would of been the right course, but it would of only work if there was a warning and if they weren't over a city at the time.

The US did launch attacks on Afganistan pretty quickly after the embassy bombings 3 years ago.

Hmm... I wonder if it's possible to infiltrate... After all, this IS a pretty accurate time for new recruits, after a "big victory".

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Lord of the RaBid Fruit Trees. ChAos rules all! Bwahahahaha...
:1drgat1:

Don't know for sure yet. Great terrorist tactic. Kill your own guys to boost morale against the ennemy.

Glad we agree on this.

And the so-called "smart weapons" are good against certain things, but if you want to make sure you send in troops. That is why we have them. They are not for ceremony.

I agree the troops are not only for ceremonies. However, it makes no sense to send in troops when they're going to die for sure. Bomb first, make people home happy. When things calm down, send the troops in to do the real damage...

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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

Oh my news channel said it was US, but if your don't I guess it unconfirmed then.

[This message has been edited by Gabriel (edited 09-11-2001).]

What does his relationship with Cloudy have to do with this? He was simply saying he thought the conspiracy theory was irrational, and giving reasons - I saw no flames in his posts, or are you puting words in HIS mouth (no that was NOT aninsult, just an observation)



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In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is pimp.
Lord Raptor's Site
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif

I'm listening to CNN right now and they can't ID the source. Mind you I wasn't watching CNN on my first post on this issue (bombing in Kabul)

Oh strike with missiles and aircraft first by all means, but the troops need to be right behind that sort of attack to complete matters. This business of firing 50 missiles and analyzing the data for 6 weeks doesnt work.

How about surrounding the place, bombing, and then sending in troops right away to clean up?



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Lord of the RaBid Fruit Trees. ChAos rules all! Bwahahahaha...
:1drgat1:

Nice plan. What if they're in the mountains. They're waiting for the attack. Tomahaks blow the place up. US forces move in and then, the terrorist attack their own camp... no, bad timming.

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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

Bombing and killing them WILL NOT WORK, sure it will make everyone feel better (Not them of course) but those dead will become martyas to the cause and more will join because of it. The only way I see to destory them is destory their idolilogy, but how do you do somehting like that?

I thought I answered that one... The only way to destroy terrorism or the cause is to kill them ALL, not just the terrorist but also the populace (which will never happen).

Sending troops in will only remove the current bad elements. If you remove them, that means that other unknown elements will take their place. I would rather have a known terrorist to deal with than an unknown one. At least I know where the treat is and what it is.



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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

What the ? Moni, I don't know what that is supposed to mean and frankly it is just mean and uncalled for! It has no bearing on this discussion.

I understand that you may be feeling distraught, it is a very sad and upsetting day for all of us! In light of that, I will just assume things I see here are not carefully thought out. Still that was unpleasant to see and I'm sorry you were unhappy enough to post it.

Cloudy



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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg

Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

This is a tragedy that will change the world.

I've always felt that one of the biggest faults that humans have is that we (almost) always believe that our own viewpoints and beliefs are superior to those of others. While others are shocked by what has happened, there are others who are celebrating. I can't look into their minds and think like they do ( nor do I ever want to ) but they hold their beliefs just as strongly as I hold my own.

Retaliation? Punishment? Revenge? These concepts are too easily tangled up with morals and ethics.

However much it saddens me to say it, the "rules", if any, are set by those who *first* start the action - I believe that it is sometimes necessary to kill not because we *want* to, but because we *have* to. Is there anyone of us who feels at ease to live in a world with whoever arranged this tragedy?

Pangur Ban.

You say you know it the wrong ideal but still talk of doing it with others? That I'm confused here time to leave the thread.

Unfortunately that wold inflame the attacks of OTHER formerly-passive groupd - how many settlements an you murder? There are an awful lot of bad people - some inevery city - genocide will not work


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In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is pimp.
Lord Raptor's Site
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif

Firstly I'd like to extend my deepest sympathies to anuyone on this forum who may know any of the victims of these terrible atrocities and all our American friends as well.

Secondly an apology, I've not had time to read all the threads because it's midnight and I have to work in 6 hours but I felt it was important I got my point of view across. So sorry if I double up on anyone else's comments.

The US is now suffering from its recent domestic policy on terrorism, for some reason it has never paid it a lot of attention in the past, sure it has retaliated against atrocities committed against it, but it has never really had to get to grips with constant, aggressive attacks on its home country over a period of years like many other countries have. It therefore lacks the infrastructure and general security measures and awareness that are needed to stop these attacks from happening.

If the US were more aware it would have been considerably more difficult to 'sneak some people on planes with guns' to hijack and then fly the 767s into the world trade centre, pentagon and Pittsburgh (apparently it's ultimate target was camp david).

Yes the FBI, CIA are on the case but they don't patrol every town and city in the country. If this was planned in Britain (IRA), Israel (Hezbollah) or South Africa until recently it would have been far more difficult to perpetrate because all security forces are permanently on a high state of alert.

I'm not saying it would not happen but it would be much more difficult. In short the US has domestically as far as terrorism is concerned been lulled into a false sense of security.

In terms of who is responsible I think it is most likely a powerful fundamentalist terrorist group (probably Bin Laden) backed by one or more countries with a gripe against the USA.

The terrorists provide the maniacs willing to commit suicide to strike at the US while the countries involved provide fake documentation, money, transportation and most important training and the access to cutting edge technology needed to pull off this sort of operation.

A terrorist group on its own would not be able to perpetrate this alone nor would a small group of people acting off there own back, this took months of planning, studying plane timetables and working out ways of sneaking undeteckted onto planes.

My guess is Iraq, the Sudan or Libya are the prime suspects not Afganistan-they just harbor bin laden-there was a quite disgusting statement issued by the Iraqi government today.

Palestine is not guilty because if they were the US would gladly help Israel wipe it off the face of the earth and Araft looked genuineley shocked by what happened.

It smacks of bin laden who told a London based reporter that the US was going to be the target of something very big in the coming weeks a fortnight ago. The group also never admit to attacks like these-and contary to some posts haven't admitted they were involved. They are also aware of how important it is to strike at symbolic targets to give the rest of the extremists a boost-and you don't get much more symbolic than the world trade centre or the pentagon.

I have to say whoever is in charge of security at the airports the planes were hijacked from ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suspect the pilots were murdered because I know if I was flying a plane and someone stuck a gu in my face and told me to fly into the world trade centre I'd crash it into the bay instead given half a chance-you know you'll die anyway.

As to what's to be done you CANNOT strike at every terrorist group on earth because then they'll retaliate ad bring your country to its knees, believe me the IRA have been making a royal nuisance of themselves for the last 40 years in the UK they have caused havoc and that's just one bunch who have tied upo thousands of troopsm, soldiers and resources in an ultimately fruitless pursuit of it.

Multiple that problem by the thousand in a country unused to dealing with terrorists and that is what the US would face.

You cannot physically wipe out all terrorists the best solution in my opinion is for western countries to work hard at their diplomatic relations with the rest of the world so no one wants to sponsor terrorism-bribe them if you must.

If the whole world community works together there is nowhere for these murderous little sods to hide and you'll get them in the end.

The British tried to murder all the IRA leaders in dublin in the 1920s and it did not work. If the solution was to kill all terrorists it would have been done a long time ago-it hasn't been, that should give a clue about how effective that tactic is.

The US also has to be very careful it doesn't overreact and upset potential allies in this-like Russia and China, it should confine itself to a couple of punitive strikes against those responsible, perhaps remove bin laden then get one with recruiting support for a world wide crusade against terrorism and catch everyone responsible if possible.

You can't go eradicating thousands of people because that makes you as bad as them and drums up support for the terrorists. But you should try and bring them to justice, this is an ideal opportunity for the US to prove it really is a super power by acting like one and not taking a scattergun approach and blowing great chunks out of every country ever accused of global terrorism.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone or rambled on a bit but I'm knackered and I thought you might appreciate the effort. I just hope there's a woprld left for us tomorrow I've just heard the US is bombing afganistan.

I'm not talking of doing it. I know that the US will retaliate. That's a fact of life. Personnally, I believe that it will be both "smart weapons" striking camps and "black operations" to go after the bad guys.

Even if the US managed to kill some of the terrorists, they will not solve this problem unless they eliminate the idea (the population). Which is basicly to eliminate everything out of what we refer to as the "civilised world". Terrorism will always be there wether we like it or not because we will not remedy to the problem as we realize that this would make us terrorist (which by the way we already are).

So, I'm not saying kill them all. I'm saying that to solve the problem, you need to kill them all but, that we will never do that. I'm not promoting genocide, I'm just saying that unfortunately, genocide is the only way to solve this perticular problem. Short of this drastic action, nothing we do will make a difference. And I sure hope that we NEVER resort to war or genocide to solve terrorism...

Too long to reply but by far one of the best post in this tread. One little problem: who are we to impose upon them OUR justice system? Are we saying that only American justice (or Western justice systems) are the right one?

IMO, this would not serve anything but to infuriate even more those anti-US groups.

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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 09-11-2001).]

I say we end this, like we did WWII.

I'm kidding, I don't want to be attacked......read on, please


Actually, the problem with that is.......Too many other 3rd world countries have Nukes.....and are stupid enough to use them.

I can not believe the dribble I've been reading(trying to catch up), we need to pull together here, and not bash the leaders of this country(not pointing any finger, of course).

I do not think that we would blindly attack Afganastan(sp) without proving that it was Bin-laden. Our leadrers have more sense then that


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http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/mask1.gif

No, you are saying that I insinuated that!
I do not see Mr.Bush as being a strong enough person on his own to be able to take over this country!
I do however see where he can take advantage of this for his own political gain and I wouldn't put it past him to do so since "being someone special" is so important to the man living in his father's shadow.

As far as other threads go...I got pretty sick of being attacked for things I did not say...things I DID NOT insinuate! What I said is what I said and if you want to read more into it for a reason to get in my sh*t, that's your problem, I don't have to take it.

I should not have to continously defend myself against you and your point of view of what you want to read into my posts and the derogatory statements that you want to make as a result of your own misunderstanding.

You should be man enough to accept the fact that not everyone sees the world through the same eyes and if I feel sorry for the rest of the world because we have a retard in the White House, I should be entitled to that opinion no matter what is going on in this country.

If Bush handles this matter with speed, tact and consideration for the lives of American civilians and military personnel, I'll be both suprised and grateful.
That does not mean however that I have to cave in to popular demand and praise him for being in office today, tomorrow or any other day of my life and I hope you can understand that and drop this please.

Between your rants and those of LoA, I feel like I should be blamed for the ugliness that has arisen in this forum today and I know in my heart I am not at fault for speaking a small part of my opinion that I am perfectly entitled to according to the Constitution.

All this energy wasted getting on getting on my case when it could be spent on more emotionally uplifting topics. This thread was created for opinion, not controversy.
I never called your opinions or you names did I? Other than calling you on your overblown misunderstandings haven't I let you be?



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http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprincess/images/ltp4.gif

You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!

<font color=orange>I have just heard on NBC that the NSA has intercpeted messages to Bin Ladens group
that the "Targets have been hit". We have used this type of information to put away Josuf Ramsey, a crony of Bin Ladens and those responsible for the African Bombings some years back.

They are also saying that Knives, not guns where used to hijack the planes. I guess from cell phone calls from the passengers.

If bin Laden is responsible, then no justice, revenge or punishment. Just send him straight to HELL and those that support him as well! Leave no rock
unturned!!!</font>

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Sir Taliesin

http://www.dabros.com/images/sigs/giant.gif

If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?

Very well said!

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"That looks pretty fatal. I think you have to return to the Character generation section."
One player to another
http://www.asnsoup.com/Nachtrafe%20273x1361.jpg

OK...this entire post is ridiculous. This is nothing but vitriol and whining. And, since I have stated repeatedly that I prefer to deal point to point...here goes...

Ummm...OK. You're telling me that someone who rose to incredible prominence in one of the most cutthroat business in the world(Oil) isn't strong? Even fellow oilmen, both in the US and abroad comment on how astute and capable GW Bush is. And that's not his father talking. GW did it on his own. He was given starting shares and money by his family, but he rose to prominence on his own. Same with politics.

So you're saying that the only reason he is going to respond to this crisis is to further himself and his own ego? Or am I reading things into your comments unfairly? If I am, by all means, please clarify.

I have not read anything into anything you have said. I have either directly quoted you, or you have inferred and insinuated so loudly that the meaning is unmistakable. As for "get(ting) into my sh*t", I am not the one who brought up an outside, personal relationship in order to divert a debate that I was losing.

I dont recall making any derogatory statements. If I have, please reiterate them, and I will apoligize. I dont belive in winnign debates with insults and emotionally charged flames. Please, quote any personal insults and I will gladly apologize and put them into proper context.

Again...see my above statment about Bush. Also, you continually state that you are not Bush-Bashing. Ummm..."a retard in the White House"? That sounds like bashing to me.

I hope he does handle things with speed, tact, and consideration. And Moni...again, for the record, I never asked you to praise Bush. I asked you to stop being negative about him personally, and respect the fact that he is the President, dealing with a national emergency. Your(and my) personal feelings about the man are irrelevent in such a situation. We, as citizens should be banding together to support him, and the rest of our govt in whatever way is necessary.

No, I dont recall you calling me names. You were rather insulting on more than one occasion though. And the comment about Cloudy was totally, 110% out of line. That would be like me attacking Rex. There is no call for it. Besided, my relationship with her has absolutely no bearing on what I post. I am an intelligent, self willed, adult, and I make up my own mind. She and I have had more than one disagreement about that. So please, stop that particular line of venom right now, and stopper it completely. I absolutely will not tolerate it.

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"That looks pretty fatal. I think you have to return to the Character generation section."
One player to another
http://www.asnsoup.com/Nachtrafe%20273x1361.jpg

Agreed Nachtrafe...you stop and it will stop. Can you just drop it like Moni said, or is it going to keep on going? I'm done saying everthing in this thread that needs to be said. Leave Moni alone. Get on with your life. I will know if it is finished if you either A)don't respond again, or B)say "OK" finished. Let us get back to dealing with what has happen today. -Peace-

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http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprincess/images/khan.gif
"Heads are gonna roll..."

[This message has been edited by KHaN (edited 09-12-2001).]

point to point...you have yours and I have mine. We obviously disagree.

You want to keep pushing this subject?


GW's accomplishments as you see them are your opinion, the same as the way I see him is mine. Notice your own keyword "cutthroat" http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Did I say that? You crack me up...I said "I do however see where he can take advantage of this for his own political gain" did I not?
He is going to respond to this crisis because as our country's leader, he has to...how he responds to it and what it makes of him in the public eye is a totally different matter.

Twist it into whatever you feel comfortable with, just keep it to yourself because I see no need for me to continously repeat myself and disect my own posts to make you feel better. If you don't like it you are going to have to get over it...its my opinion.
I don't like the way you need to keep bickering but am I going to let it eat me alive and pursue you until you see things my way? Hardly. Seriously.

Tell me how does one "lose" a debate where the outcome of opinions doesn't mean squat? Will you have more friends when this is over? Will I? Does it matter? Really?! You did tell me what I had 'insinuated"...you were wrong. That's OK, I am wrong sometimes myself. Don't let it get to you, its no big deal. Seriously.

I don't need your apologies to survive. I called you on the points where you were offending. Why continue to drag it out? Seriously. If you feel that you owe me any apologies, go look for your slights yourself. I neither need nor want you to apologize for anything you don't feel you should.

Well Golly Gee Beav! I just thought if you were going to accuse me you might actually want valid reason to! Is that so bad? Seriously? You asked for a reason to get in my sh*t...I gave you one. Be happy I did not give you ten. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Does our constitution state anywhere that it is against the law to say what I think? Seriously.

I had stopped saying anything about Bush long before you got here and got on my case. Go read up in the threads and realize I had not said anything more about Bush, other than I promised notto say anything that would offend anyone until you jumped in later in the afternoon to stir up all the sh*t again.
A lot of other people have made just as, if not worse, derogatory remarks. If they had defended their rights against your dislike of it would you insist on continuing to go rounds with them?

Where did I ever deny any support for our country?
Just because I don't appreciate Dubya the same way you do does not mean that I am in any way unpatriotic.

I had stifled my opinion out of respect for other people here, but again, I kept getting pushed to defend myself. I have defended my opinion as well as yours. Get over yourself. Seriously.

I did not start with the insults. If you don't like my opinion, say all you want but don't tell me what I am telling you when the words aren't there. I'll call you on it just like i would anyone else. Seriously.

Feel free to attack Rex all you like...Rex is a big enough man to stand up for himself to you on his own and if you post untruths...I'll call you on them, plain and simple.

You have to tolerate nothing from me but my own defense against your continued unwanted, meaningless arguments. If you don't want to be made to tolerate it I have three words for you: Lay off me.

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http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprincess/images/ltp4.gif

You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!


[This message has been edited by Moni (edited 09-12-2001).]

Thanks KHaN,
You are a true friend.
Hey, my sis got a hold of me (busy signals nationwide all day) and my nephew is OK...in Baltimore, safe and sound. He is going back to DC next week.
I am going to bed. You have a good night at work, KHaN.
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/EEhearts.gif




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http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprincess/images/ltp4.gif

You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!

My American Brothers and Sisters,
We all have the freedom of speach, we all have family and friends that have been killed or killed for that freedom in the past. We also have the freedom not to speak. IMHO Now is not the time to bicker. OUR country has suffered a great tragedy, Please I beg of all us if we can't say anything nice don't say anything at all.
Tomorrow we can get back to scraping, and show the pukes that we will not be terrified. Everyone can even start a why I hate John D. tread and point to this post as permission (if the Mods say anything), but please not tonight. What ever you decide let your conscience, and the consitution of this Great nation be your guide.

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http://www.123imagehost.com/images/b...arrissig02.gif
"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

[This message has been edited by John D Harris (edited 09-12-2001).]

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http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprincess/images/khan.gif
"Heads are gonna roll..."