Are Italians to take offense now because in games there always are asociated with the mafia, or russians because in games they always want to destroy or conquer the world? Or germans, in games they only appear as nazis? Why dont all of you stop for a moment, take the box that nerverwinter nights came in and look what it has written on it: GAME!

[ 07-08-2002, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: tegoyo ]

<font color="#ff3333"> Hear Hear! I so ttotaly agree!</font>

damnit you gotta point there

but they still shouldn't call gypsies a thief/rogue class

excuse my bad english..

Unfortunately the ideas perpetuated in the class description are the reason why the race has been so persecuted. :(

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to actually play a Gypsy. I'd put it as a human subrace (an option now [img]smile.gif[/img] ) and then pick a class based on that. I'm then free to play the character according to the stereotype, or not.

Ok, here's a copy of an email I sent to bioware. I'll start with the personal route.

Hi,

I'm writing to alert you to a problem I've found within your game, one it would be advisable to correct before lawyers get involved.

It's the fact that you have the word "Gypsie" as a SUBCLASS of the thieflike Rogue.

Gypsies are in fact a race. The Romani people. They, along with Jews were the two victims of the Nazi genocidal holocaust, and to this day remain one of the most oppressed people in Europe due to their lifestyle choices, their lack of a homeland and national voice, and STEREOTYPICAL MISCONCEPTION, which possibly resulted in, and will be perpetuated by the negative stereotype in Neverwinter Nights.

I understand the wonderful roleplay of playing a romantic gypsie. I am an avid roleplayer myself, and have bought ,many of your games in the past. The problem lies in Gypsie being a class/profession, not a race.

I would implore you, both for the respect of a persecuted minority, and to avoid taking damages yourselves, to release a patch for NWN, substituting the word Gypsie, for another type of rogue subclass without reference to race. Someone could if they desired use the word "Gypsie" as a human subrace could they not?

There are many websites devoted to or referencing the Romani(Gypsie) people, the Roma, and their problems, historical and current.

Here are a few:

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm
http://www.bartleby.com/65/ro/Romany.html
http://www.worldlanguage.com/Languages/Romany.htm

Patrin contains an insight into the history of the Romani/Gypsie people which I have edited considerably:

Origins of the Romani People
by Ian Hancock

The Roma have been made up of many different groups of people from the very beginning, and have absorbed outsiders throughout their history. Because they arrived in Europe from the East, they were thought by the first Europeans to be from Turkey or Nubia or Egypt, or any number of vaguely acknowledged non-European places, and they were called, among other things, Egyptians or ‘Gyptians, which is where the word "Gypsy" comes from................

...............In Europe, Roma were either kept in slavery in the Balkans (in territory that is today Romania), or else were able to move on and up into the rest of the continent, reaching every northern and western country by about 1500. In the course of time, as a result of having interacted with various European populations, and being fragmented into widely-separated groups, Roma have emerged as a collection of distinct ethnic groups within the larger whole.■
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Honorable Ian F. Hancock, of British Romani and Hungarian Romani descent, represents Roma on the United States Holocaust Memorial Council. He is professor of Romani Studies at the University of Texas at Austin, and has authored nearly 300 publications. In 1997, he was awarded the international Rafto Human Rights Prize (Norway), and in 1998 was recipient of the Gamaliel Chair in Peace and Justice (USA).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Taken from Patrin regarding their persecutiion:

The Roma remain the most persecuted minority in Europe. Innocent children, mothers and fathers are brutally attacked and murdered and there is little action from the authorities to apprehend and prosecute the racist culprits responsible for these senseless acts. The authorities themselves are often responsible for singling out Roma by withholding rightful citizenship, asylum from persecution, right to travel, social services and due process of the law. Imprisonment and deportation are the only official actions of many governments.
The reasons given by European governments lack clear thought or even-handed justice. The German government claims it reduces racial violence by removing Roma from their country. And what happens to the people responsible for committing violence against Roma and other minorities? Other governments claim that Roma are responsible for much petty crime, but have they attempted to remove obstacles that prevent unemployment among the Roma, reducing crime at the same time? Racist organisations demonstrate their messages of hate openly directed at Roma with little or no restrictions, yet Roma have little if any active decision-making roles in policies directly affecting their own future.
Governments have attempted to forcibly settle and resettle Roma, often with little success and negative results. These same governments have also refused Roma the opportunity to settle down of their own accord. When a new Roma encampment begins, they are forcibly removed. Reasons include safety, hygiene, and reducing crime, but there is feeble effort by the authorities in power to improve these settlements.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Many thanks for your time. I would hope this problem can be rectified quickly and easily. I await your reply.

Cheers

Hugh

Post the reply they send you, if any, as well. I'd love to see if they actually care enough about this to do anything about it....

maybe its just a spelling error cause it seems yorick likes to spell things wrong but in the game did they spell the class "gypsie" or "gypsy" if they spelled it as the first like yorick has been proclaiming then by all means there should be no race issue. its like a quote in high school.if you write a paper and you dont write it you just copy someone elses then yes it is wrong but if you rewrite it since it was based on what you where talking about it is perfectly legal.therefore if bioware understands that "gypsy" is a wondering nomad out side of societies norm. then cant they say that a "gypsie" is a rogue type of nomad that wonders and is adept in theivery.

and also about the game "return to castle wolfenstein" . i have heard that they dont want it to be sold over there in germany cause it is on a racist bias.(doesnt mean people cant get copies) but you have to remember one thing they cant sue over it because in america you have the right to free speech. you have the right to call an african american a "■■■■■■" if you so choose as long as you dont insue violence its well within your american rights. its the right of free speech. you dont have to listen if you dont want to.now im sorry i used the "n" word but it is a prime example as to how the U.S. have been given that right.

im not argueing with this post i am simply stating fact of an american right.

Romani, Romany. Gypsie, Gypsy. Same diff. Hardly the same as a plagiarism example. The inferrence is still the same.

In any case it's spelt Gypsy.

Will do Neb. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I have been reading this thread with some intrest...I personaly feel its a case of making a mountain out of a mole hill....magik i'm sure has said as much....however that said yorick you do have the right to complain and i would also like to see any reply that bioware sends you....Hope you spoke to zeroc by the way as mem suggested..i feel that in todays society the word gypsy to attatched to any sort of traveling people not just the romany people....anyway still nice to see you done somthing yorick would have been major bummer if you hadn't since you seem to feel so strongly...and i for one will tip my hat in your direction if you do manage to get it changed.

Good on ya, Yorick - it's very refreshing to see that maybe something good can come out of all this, and it's good to see people actually putting their money where their mouth is. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

It might be a good idea to forward that email to Z as well - just to keep him informed. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'd be quite curious to hear their reply to this - I imagine a petition would be the next step if this proved unsuccessful?

[ 07-08-2002, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

yeah, if they don't reply we sent petition. if they still don't care we will all boycott all bioware games. ;)

i have sent a reply to the creators of "medal of honor", "return to castle wolfenstein", "grand theft auto",and many other main line titles to completely remove or be petitioned cause the content of each of the games have racist and or stereotyped events going on and that i am majorly offended by it. it took me several hours to do such but i am PROUD to say that if this does go thru many of the best games in the world should all go down the tubes to better suit us anti racist types out there. i cant believe all those racist developers have the nerve to create such horrid and uncareless GAMES. maybe soon i can enjoy playing tellitubbies online with you all, as soon as they politically correct the purple tellitubbi first.i am with you on this one yorick lets bring down the gamers society of the world. after we have brought lightened down the gaming industry lets go for the movies, then books, then tv. all mature and responsible people should not be subjected to this kind of BS that is being spread amongst us like a plague.

and i will not apologize to avid gamers out there because i feel what i am doing is for the good. i stood up and put my mouth were my money is. i finally did something about this topic and i feel proud.instead of talking i did.

[ 07-09-2002, 02:00 AM: Message edited by: theifprowess ]

That's the spirit. [img]smile.gif[/img]

theifprowess, you're acting like a child. I remember an earlier post where you realized that your side of the discussion had no backing and you suggested that we close this topic... *sighs and shakes head*

Just let it go. I hate to sound rude on this great forum, but you're just causing trouble and nobody wants to hear it. Yorick is trying to make a difference for someone and you're giving him a hard time about it. Why?

You lost a lot of respect from me, and probably more people on this forum, by mocking his efforts to help others.

you sound as if i am joking around.im not i did reply to all those game makers. the difference is i know by sending them a message it isnt going to do anything, or change anything. i can bitch,whine and complain all i want to the creators and i know it wont do anything. a lawsuit wont ever happen, i know that. i just simply put that instead of talking and whining about certain issues i actually did it. i dont feel all that strongly about it but i did it.

i can petition the government to end the drug war and keep drugs of the street. i canpetition to keep violence of tv. i can petition to remove gang activity from the streets. the point i am making is you can make threats all you want it is not going to change a thing.

final point in order. quit bitching about it and making a fuss cause more than likely its not going to change anything.i will post any and all replies that i get back from this, from the game developers if i get any to prove to you how much of a difference i made.

Thiefprowess, your attitude is extremely disappointing. You're acting like a sore loser and a spoiled child, just because a discussion did not go your way. You have ENTIRELY missed my point. I am not supporting Yorick because I agree with him - I am supporting him because he is willing to back up what he said by getting off his ass and DOING something. Too many people in forums waffle on with grandiose proclamations about this, that and the other, or carry on about social justice, but don't actually do anything about it. To me, these people just use forums like this to boost their own egos. I don't have a lot of respect for those people - to me, if you feel strongly about an issue and are prepared to argue passionately about it, then get off your ass and do it.

Maybe my subtleties were lost on you - since Yorick was prepared to kick up a big stink and make a big fuss about this issue, I challenged him to get off his ass and do something about an issue that he has been arguing for on this thread, and to his credit he got off his ass and did something about it. That is why I respect him - not because I agree with him, but because he wasn't just arguing for the sake of arguing, he was prepared to back his words with action.

If he had backed out of it and made some excuse to not do something after all he'd said about it, then I would have lost respect for him.

You, on the other hand, are acting in a petulant way when really, what did you lose? How are you worse off because of what Yorick did? Your comment about not doing anything because it won't make a difference is what is called apathy - like voters who don't bother to vote because they don't think it will make a difference. Guess what - if enough people didn't do that they of course they won't make a difference.

I hope that this is the last sign of negativity that I see from you on this thread, as I'm not going to continue arguing with you. If you don't think Yorick's thing will be successful, then why do you keep reading and replying to this topic? I'm sure there are plenty of other topics out there which are more interesting to you.

[ 07-09-2002, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

A reply....

[ 07-09-2002, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

I'll post my reply to Jay once I've written it. As it's 3:34am, that can wait till tomorrow. [img]smile.gif[/img] ;)

It goes without saying that I disagree with that. It is the effect, not the intent that is the problem. I have no doubt offense was not intended. ;) :D Ah well. Sleeeeep beckons.

i dont care about a big ego online.or being a sore loser either(there are no winners or losers on a debate cause neither really are going to change their minds). i simply did not want this kind of discussion in this part of the forum.it was innapropriate to have it in the first place. besides why does it come down to who has a big ego or whos a sore loser. i said i wanted this topic to end. and i was being called a sore loser a while back cause i wanted this thread to stop. who was being egotistical with that remark. didnt you complain about that one memnoch?

my whole purpose on this thread was not that whos right or wrong but does it belong.i felt this topic did not belong. i say im gonna drop the thread then some one had to act chidish and call me a sore loser.

and by that reply from bioware only proved my point earlier. that you can complain and it did not do anything.it will not change anything. like none of my requests will be taken seriously.

I have not yet begun to fight. ;)

well, at least people from bioware took the effort to reply yorick's mail. some company don't even bother.

good luck with the battle, just remember in the book david beat goliath. it doesnt work that way in these modern times.99.9% of the time the giant will always win the battle.

Thanks dude, this is what I mean by maturity. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I agree! Jay is a very nice person. I have talked with him a few times in email. One thing about Bioware, like MOST large companies, or small companies that become big usually become poor in the customer service dept, but not Bioware. They really DO care what people think, and treat each email personally.

Personally, I don't agree with Yorick's claim, but I support what he is doing.

To me, it's like what I read on the RPG Newsgroup about the 'Drow'. and why "The only Black people in AD&D are Drow, and they are all EVIL" Then they go on to say "TSR was making Black people out to all be Evil".. It's not totally the same thing, but the guy that posted this Drow thead didn't know that black, white, asian--ALL RACES are in AD&D. Now, as you know Usenet, the thread turned into a flamewar. (A reason I don't visit Newsgroups as much these days).

99% of my time 'online' was reading Newsgroups. but now I stick to this Forum and a few bookmarks..

To Yorick once more: Read the letter and understand what it says *it is a game, it is fiction* and drop your oh I am so good politicly correctness.

Ahhh maby the discussion is over now ! Thanks to Bioware for the ansver! LOL :D

As I said, I'll post my reply. Those two arguments are defenseless. It may be a game, it may be fiction, but in character startup it says (paraphrased) "The Gypsy....makes his way by illegal means, often crossing thieves guilds on his way through"

A racist statement due to the Gypsy being a factual race regardless of the games setting.

Let's say I have a game set in "Normplianda".

I have two professions. The Spaniard, and the Amerikan.

The Spaniard makes his way with religious conviction. Persecuting those he disagrees with and killing locals for their silver.

The Amerikan though powerful is ignorant of others cultures. Ignoring local laws he steps on his smaller adversaries for the slightest provokation.

How would you feel?

what race are the amerikans? white black hispanic asian korean european russian indian australian/ amerikans. problem with amerikans is they all came from another part of the world.as far as the game is concerned, it would be interesting to see how the story was,and what the char looked like. you could make the game out to be like warcfraft. the only thing i would look for is storyline,music,and gameplay.if all 3 really sucks then no i wouldnt play the game. i wouldnt take the game literally either.

but why call it amerikans against the world? the amerikans havent fallen from power yet have they?why not call it. romanns vs the world so at least you can say the romanns were conquering all of the old world and nothing could stop them from there conquest. cept for game added bug where you must protect your empire from the political anarchy bug that threatens to destroy your empire.

if you dont like my game or yoricks you do not have to play them. it is not like the amerikans or any other faction is making you play the game.any amerikan and any other world citizen has been given their own free will to do what they want with their time so if you dont want to play the game cause you feel in your own belief that its bias. then so be it you do not have to play it. hell maybe instead of playing such horrific games we should all take the time to learn how to highjack planes and go on suicidal martyr missions and blow up more buildings instead of playing these stupid biased games. at least a point will be made, wont it:p?lets all agree to disagree that nothing is going to come from trying to fight the corporate giants and accept that they like the rest of the corporate giants have been given the right to step on the little people cause the little people have given them the right to.its the little people that buy the product, and if the product keeps selling why should they stop?

unreal tourny, halflife, quake3. all involve mass killing of each other for contest reasons. then some kids in school decide they want to go shoot up fellow schoolmates cause of bullies. where do they look first to blame. those types of games. yet for some reason they still are the largest and most played games out there. you can not stop the sale of such games because it controls and dominates the market. its like i said with drugs. it ended up costing more money for the US trying to end the drug war then it did to just let it ride.the reason why is there are stupid and i mean alot of stupid people out there that want the drugs. and there will be any means necessary to get them. you cant control it, you cant fight it, but it can be tolerated.i dont do drugs or anything but i am willing to bet there are many of people on IW that do do illegal substances.hell one of my best freinds does drugs. my mother did drugs(cant say such anymore cause shes dead).

i guess the point i am trying to cross is sure its great to fight a cause,such as racism,drugs,violence, and many other things. but the cause you are trying to fight can not be won just to the due fact that in our politcal world today they are by all means allowed to but that kind of content into their game.

maybe the arabs are so mad at the US for always portraying them as terrorists in movies.maybe thats why they have struck back.but does it make it right?does that not make them more of what the US makes them out to be?why not instead of blowing themselves up like idiots do they not try to prove us wrong?
and on and on and on icould go on for ever with related topics that i know woll never get solved but my fingers are tired.

That post was gibberish. My head hurts from reading the whole thing. You're still trying to make a point without having ANY backing for your it. You touch on big issues that seem important, but they're really spuriously correlated to this topic.

There is a big difference between an email to Bioware and hijacking planes, which you shouldn't have even suggested.

The cause we're fighting here IS racism, regardless of the fact that it was unintentional. We might not win, but does that mean we shouldn't even try? No. [img]smile.gif[/img]

On last time to Yorick: If you programm a game like what you described, I would play it if its good, if not I ignore it (no misunderstanding here, I ignore it because it is a bad game.) Its games, man, and out there are tons of games that put people in a box. I think by now you are just making a fool of yourself by not droping the subject. You got your letter from bioware, what else? Start a war?Stop bioware from developing games?

How the hell did this topic manage to get soo 'off topic', if you get my meaning...

As I said, I'll post my reply. Those two arguments are defenseless. It may be a game, it may be fiction, but in character startup it says (paraphrased) "The Gypsy....makes his way by illegal means, often crossing thieves guilds on his way through"

A racist statement due to the Gypsy being a factual race regardless of the games setting.

Let's say I have a game set in "Normplianda".

I have two professions. The Spaniard, and the Amerikan.

The Spaniard makes his way with religious conviction. Persecuting those he disagrees with and killing locals for their silver.

The Amerikan though powerful is ignorant of others cultures. Ignoring local laws he steps on his smaller adversaries for the slightest provokation.

How would you feel?</font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#ff55cc"> Yorick I really really disagree with you on this, but I do support your right to complain as much as you would like.

I do however take exception to you making claims that Gypsy's are a "RACE". As far as I have been able to find on the internet, Gypsy's are in fact Human (Homo Sapiens) They have the same genetic makeup as do we all and are therefore NOT a Race unto themselves. Now you could say that you are using "A" dictionary definition of race...but you have already denied Bioware that defense so I guess it would not be appropriate to try and use it yourself.

I also think that this discussion should be moved to the GD forum. Since it is not really about the game but about ideology, sensitivity and bruised feelings.

As for your last question, how would I feel? I would feel the same as if you had told a pollack joke...I know it isn't true and not care.</font>

[ 07-09-2002, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Why must everyone bitch and whine just because Yorick decides to see if he can manage to change something that he sees as offensive towards a certain culture? Will it lessen your enjoyment of the game if he manages to get it changed? No. Will it increase his enjoyment of the game? Possibly.

I see no reason to argue with Yorick even though I might not agree entirely with what he's saying since if he succeeds it harms noone and helps him.

Unless of course there are people out there who think that gypsies SHOULD be portrayed in this way. In which case I couldn't care less if it makes them feel uncomfortable if it's changed since they're obviously a bunch of intolerant racist morons.

To Neb: Ouite the opposite, its just that I despise people that turn every stone until they found something to complain about (and even more so if their complaint is extremly far fetched). And this people do affect me! Remember the inquisition? (not personal , of course!) But in them days you stepped out of line by saying somthing what would today be called "politically incorrect" it was the fire for you. And this is what this people want. You have to see the world their way, and if you dont, well "I complain about you, I sue you or whatever, or I write letters that keep people from developing fun and entertaning games."