Yeah, that’s what I thought. And siding against Valygar doesn’t seem to 'good' so wouldn't really count as a 'good' path really. And, unless the CW say "If you complete this task for us, we will aid you in the rescue of your friend" or something to that effect, then the player wont know to side against Valygar in order to get the third way to Spellhold (or they will by downloading the mod in the first place but in terms of actually RP storyline they wont). Does that make sense? heh.

--Kestrel--


p.s. Congratulations on making Red Wizard, Magness

Kestrel,

I've never played the Bodhi path, but it seems to me that it is critical to the main plot to have Bodhi involved in this part of the story, either by siding with her or against her. If you have no knowledge of her, it may greatly change the nature of the initial encounter with the elves after you return from the Underdark. You wouldn't have the same intuitive knowledge that Bodhi was probably in possession of the Lanthorn.

Oh, I suppose that one could include info on the Lanthorn into one of Irenicus' diary scrolls. But what if you haven't picked up that scroll?


Yes, I suppose that it's entirely possible to come up with different groups that might willingly get you out to Brynnlaw in exchange for some service. But trying to avoid including Bodhi in that story messes with BG2's base plotline.

I didnt think of that, sorry. Hmmm, yeah you are right, I just thought it would have been better not going down the same path as the Shadow Thieves as it may seem repetitious but you do make sence.

However you do meet Bodhi in Spellhold, some more dialog could be added to make Irenicus appear very trusting of Bodhi, and you do meet her in chapter 2 when you go to the graveyard after she summons you to offer her services.

Sorry, you are probably right to say that Bodhi needs to be the final outcome of siding with a new group, I just thought there should be something new.


--Kestrel--

Oh, it's amusing ot speculate about alternate ways to get to Brynnlaw, but Bodhi is a major character in the main story and is really hard to leave out without altering that story.

Yeah, you are right. It would end up having to confront Bodhi in her Crypt then.


--Kestrel--

So, in a final attempt to get this back on track, heh. Is it agreed that the Harpers are the desired choice or...?

--Kestrel--

Hm... Nobody's brought up the fact that, to have the Harpers as a valid group, they need more of an endgame. Gold and missions and whatever aside, they'd need some sort of hidden agenda for this to work.

We read it, it's simply that the Harpers are going to be a major headache. A plot where the Harpers ask you to eradicate the slavers in the Copper Coronet, the Slaver Ship, and the Guarded Compound is simple enough, but the complications that arise as soon as the Jaheira possibilities are considered just throw a massive monkeywrench into the works. As we all know this, any idea that mentions two rival factions of Harpers sparks an automatic 'pain!' reaction. It might actually be easier if we ripped up Jaheira's quest and romance by the roots and re-wrote them in their entirety (so that they actually worked this time), and in such a way that left room for using the Harpers as a path to Spellhold, whether Jaheira was in the party or not. </font>[/QUOTE]I hereby support the idea of A) Writing a new Jaheira romance and implementing it, and B) Creating a Harper way of getting to Spellhold. I think that this community could do a good job creating such a mod, or at least dialogues and storylines.




[img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] I thought I already gave such a reason in my post on page 3 or 4 (the long one). Although I will post a summary [of the reason for the involvement of the Harpers] below, I would like it if you would read it, Illumina. I know you know a great deal about Forgotten Realms lore, and any feedback for that matter is interesting (feel free to PM or email me, anyone!).

In short though, my idea was that the Harpers know about who you are (through Gorion, Elminster) and keep an eye on you. After all, they are all for balance, as we know, so it's not a crazy thought altogether to assume they would want to watch CHARNAME (being a godchild whose involved in a prophecy) closely. They have Jaheira in your ranks (which might come in handy in the romance: Jaheira loving you, but at the same time having a responsibility of checking on you. IIRC this is the main theme in the original romance as well, but it wasn't implemented that well), they want to find out about Irenicus as well (I think it's safe to assume that the Harpers are aware of what happened to Irenicus and Bodhi the first time they tried to leech the Tree of Life). Combining the two wouldn't be too weird, now wouldn't it?

I remember that (Forgive me for not recalling everything, this thread *has* been going on for over a month now)... But it seems to me like there should be something more there. I'm inclined to think that there should be more of a.... A percieved betrayal, or more sneakiness, or a more hidden motive. Or something small... To throw a sloppy idea out there, something like, in breaking into Spellhold, you also either release a Harper imprisoned there, or perhaps they're setting you up to fight some sort of Zhent imprisoned there that they want assasinated (never telling you, of course, but knowing that you would end up fighting him). Maybe relic retrieval... I'm not sure.

Your idea is good, and the Harpers' reasons are valid already... I just get the nagging feeling that it should be taken a step further.

Illumina, kinda brings up the case of what do the Shadow Thieves want you to do? You don't have any contact or dealings with them after you get back, so why should you have to with any other group?

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a bad idea, I'm just saying it's not necesarry to have a WAY more detailed plan than the other current ways to get to spellhold.

Also, you don't want the new way to outbalance the other two XP wise. Introducing a new, un-related side effect of the harpers would certainly do that. If that was done, then EVERYBODY would go the harper route, regardless of RP choice.

But, while we're on the topic of RP choice, there should be an alignment / virtue check before being allowed to do any of their quests. Thus, if you're an evil character, you can't do them.

The only reason I'm complaining is because it's the Harpers. Look at how they get Xzar killed. That's how they operate. They had you find a poisoned man and lead you through destroying Xzar's lab, the Harper necklaces, the Spectral Harpists, the bird... To genuinely write a quest for them would be a headache, and I'm just making sure people know that.

<span style="color: lightblue">Ok, as promised, work on Third Way has started. I'm going to keep following this discussion, so I;m bumping it in the hope that more ideas will evolve...

I think that the simple answer is that the Shadow Thieves want you to discover then deal with whomever is challenging them. After you defeat Bodhi the first time, you've basically done what the ST's want of you.

This is a fair question. And I think that it should be possible to have a high level way to describe what the Harpers may want of the PC when the PC has dealings with them. I don't think that it's necessary for the Harpers to betray the PC, although they may certainly be rather deceptive or obtuse during their dealings with the PC.