Actually, the Bible tells us to "stone disobedient children" (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). </font>[/QUOTE]No, it told Ancient Israeli society to. Not gentiles like you or I. ;) Certainly not Christians freed from the law of Moses.

It follows I guess, that, as per the biblical promise, honoring you father and mother led to a long life. :D

I disagree with corporal punishment. I was hit as a child - in anger - and will not hit my children. Didn't read all the argument, as I'm already convinced. I don't know about making it illegal though. Increasing education is probably a better option.

Spanking is also a quick way to stop wrong behavior. During the toddler stage, a child is not capably communicating in verbal ways, so some physical component, such as a wrist slap, is simply negative reinforcement. Also, it depends on the child. Galadria rarely disciplined Piestrider, since he is cautious and prudent, but Will (age 5) needed several spankings in his pre-school career.

Yeah, you're right - the act of stoning in such a case isn't harsh or barbarian whatsoever. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. </font>[/QUOTE]Look at the CONTEXT Grol. Laws for a new and evolving society, defining morality.

In middle eastern cultures there has been a proliferation of family bloodshed and rivalry. In the Bible, King David fought off two armed rebellions against his own sons. Certainly they were "rebellious". What did that do for the society?

Other examples are that in Pashto, the word for "cousin" doubles as "enemy". One and the same word.

In a harsh world, hash measures were clearly needed, in establishing a society of mutual protection, respect, law and prosperity. Times have changed in certain areas thankfully, but not others.

Context is the key to getting anything from the bible. Otherwise you could justify anything (as people do).

I do... isn't the whole planet effed up, full of psychos? What have we done to the place???

First thing that happens to a kid when they're born is they're whacked on the arse. So they'll breathe by crying.... what a reception!

I sincerely doubt that a lack of physical punishment of children is responsible for the mess the planet is in.

One could make as strong an argument for why people are messed up BY spanking as why they are kept on the right path by it. It depends on the kid, the parents, and many other variables.

actually, the practice of spanking a newborn has gone out as well, now they rub a towel vigoriuosly on the chest and place a suction bulb into their throats ;)

I half agree with you on this one, but IMO it is more a lack of guidence than anything else, when I was in school, if we brought a gun or knife to school, we would get a paddling by the principal, then by our parents, but now the kids are doing it without fear of conciqunces of their actions, I am not saying go back to beating a child, but there should be some limit to putting a stop to children getting away with these things now, in the older days, before my time, kids brought knives to school, and as far as I know, never used them for anything more than open a bottle of soda. now kids know how to use weapons, and what they are for, perhaps it has something to do with what they watch everyday on TV..but I doubt it, I think it is more a lack of focus and guidence of right and wrong

Don't worry Yorick, I'm fairly aware of all that. ;) I just hope people will keep the same thing in mind when they're ripping phrases out of context from the Kuran in their attempts to "prove" that the Islam is a violent and barbarous religion.

[ 06-28-2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Our children are sometimes an uncomfortable reflection of our parenting. When our kids underacheive or behave badly, go look in the mirror and ask yourself why. Almost every time, I attribute it to my overly laid back attitude. My propensity to take the easy way out and not put enough effort into parenting. As soon as I put more hours and dollars into parenting, things improved greatly. You get out of it, what you put into it! Nothing good comes without work and sacrifice.

I half agree with you on this one, but IMO it is more a lack of guidence than anything else, when I was in school, if we brought a gun or knife to school, we would get a paddling by the principal, then by our parents, but now the kids are doing it without fear of conciqunces of their actions, I am not saying go back to beating a child, but there should be some limit to putting a stop to children getting away with these things now, in the older days, before my time, kids brought knives to school, and as far as I know, never used them for anything more than open a bottle of soda. now kids know how to use weapons, and what they are for, perhaps it has something to do with what they watch everyday on TV..but I doubt it, I think it is more a lack of focus and guidence of right and wrong </font>[/QUOTE]Yes. But lack of guidance and lack of spanking are two different things. I agree that, for example, bringing guns and knives to school is bad, but it is possible to put limits on that without spanking/paddling. I don't contest the fact that more guidance is necessary, but spanking will probably not solve the problem. It's more about attitude (parental and children's) than anything else. If we were to go back to paddling those that bring guns to school, it's likely the next time the kid would blow away the principal in retaliation. That said, it's a bad problem; I'm lucky to live in a place where guns aren't too accessible.