Just a quick reminder. As Cloudy said earlier, the Mods will watch this thread carefully. This is potentially just about the most emotive and divisive topic that could have been started. It is also just the sort of topic that I would like to see discussed openly and in a spirit of respect for opposing viewpoints.

So far it's been fine, lets keep it that way [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

I wanna throw this into the mix:

When does a life bcome a life? When the mind registers? When the limbs are growing? At conception? Before conception?

A woman should always have a choice in this. Only she, and noone else, especially not the church. That's the way it is in Holland.

<font color=skyblue>That sadly can never be proven as to when. There are lots of theories and ideas...but even my church's handbook says that we do not hold a specific time as the moment. Some ideas are:

When the heart starts beating
When the brain is fully developed
When the baby is cut from the womb
When conception occurs
When the spirit enters the body
When the baby takes a first breath
When the cell develops into a humanoid shape

These are the ones I have heard. None can be guaranteed. All are speculation.</font>

Horatio, I and TL had ourselves a little discussion about that on page 1. I also posted my thoughts there, including a warning about adding this to the discussion. ;)

Mouse, you didn´t tell us how you voted. [img]tongue.gif[/img] I agree with you. 30+ posts and no hard feelings what so ever. Must be a new record. :D

Edit: I would like to add "When brain activity can be registered" to your list Larry. [img]smile.gif[/img] On a side note, the brain is not fully developed at birth so I´m not sure if that´s an option. It very well may be.

[ 01-27-2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: WillowIX ]

Aelia, what a great post, very well-said.
Most of what you state is exactly how I feel, so no need for me to go into it all.

Slight difference though - I am pro-choice because I don't want to impose my views on others, and in the case of abortion, I don't think the state should, either. However, I personally would only revert to abortion in the worst possible scenario, if there really is no other choice. And I feel that other women should do the same. I can understand that if you're already pregnant, it's impossible to let the child be born then give it up for adoption - I don't think I could do that either. But I find it outrageous that some people use abortion as a form of contraception, or in any flippant way. I don't think abortion should be outlawed, but I do wish people would not regard it as an easy and readily available solution - it should be a last resort only.

Pro-choice - I should not/nor would I want to decide what a woman does with her body.

IMO a baby's life starts when it is born.

Anti-death penalty - Can't trust the legal system. I also don't think a government should be able to kill it's citizens.

Interesting fact, it is actually cheaper to keep a person locked up for their entire life than to execute them, go figure.

[ 01-27-2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: esquire ]

I remember somthing fronm biology class in H.S. that defined what the requirements for life were. Maybe Attalus can help me out here? If I remember correctly they were respiration,circulation,reproduction,digestion, and a few other things that I cant remember right now. It defined why trees and plants were alive even though they dont have "organs" or brains or move around. I would have to say that as soon as a fetus develops ALL of the charateristics inherent in ALL types of life then it should be considered alive. IMHO 4 out of 5 wouldnt be good enough to say it was alive either. It would have to be all or nothing.

Here's some good conservative info on partial birth abortion:
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/index.html
http://www.tidalweb.com/life/prolife.htm
http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWa...t/pbabort2.htm

I can't find any pro-partial-birth abortion websites without a detailed search because it's, well, repugnant and unpopular. Conservatives latch onto this when arguing for pro-life issues. But, that's like latching onto McVeigh or Dahmer when urging support of the death penalty - seeking the extremes is a way to create a straw man to knock down.

That said, I think the ban (it passed, I believe, but if not it likely will) prevents all late-term abortion unless it is a medical emergency. I'm all for that, and it's in keeping with Roe v. Wade.

If there is a legal argument supporting partial birth abortion, it's based on the Commerce Clause argument found in Lopez:
http://davekopel.com/CJ/LawRev/Takin..._Seriously.htm

Read it if you like, but it's a weak challenge in most legal minds. However, the Renqhuist court is VERY anti-federalism, making it a better argument these days. On the other hand, the Renqhuist court is also concervative and will NOT support (IM educated O) knock down a partial birth abortion ban.

HTH

1. Pro-choice
2. Ultimately it is the mother's descision
3. Atheist - so no [img]smile.gif[/img]
4. If it was my child I'd do my utmost to convince the mother to have the child.
5. I have a problem with it as it seems to be enforced arbitrarily - still some b*st*rds deserve to die. In the end I'll say no to the death penalty.