Absolutely wrong. When contractors were massacred, I didn't see any Iraqis on TV trying to apologize for the behavior of their fellows. Yet, we are taking this very seriously in the US -- the president will be addressing Iraq directly on TV (today, I think) about this issue. It may have been a joke, but it's very wrong. I think this thread itself is additional proof.

From The Smoking Gun


Army Report Details Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

MAY 5--Below you'll find a copy of the military investigative report into abuses perpetrated by soldiers working at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. Prepared by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, the 53-page document details mistreatment of prisoners held in the section of the lockup where some inmates were interrogated. The classified Taguba report, completed in March, concluded that soldiers "committed egregious acts and grave breaches of international law" at Abu Ghraib, where detainees were subjected to assorted sexual and psychological degradations--some of which were photographed by Army jailers.
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To download the report (in pdf format) go to The link above or go to The Memory Hole for an HTML version of the report.

[ 05-05-2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Rokenn ]

I can't believe how long that frikkin document is. If I wrote something like that, I would be fired within 24 hours. I can't believe how the government gets wrapped up in its own BS. Federal courts, on the other hand, require you to make a motion to file anything longer than 15 pages. I've heard of judges ripping the last pages off a document and tossing it back at the attorney for violating the rule.

We need more rules about rules. We need bigger gummint, dammit! More, give us MORE!!!

Erm... lesson here, folks. If your document makes you look like an idiot, regardless of how awesome the substance is, you should redesign it.

That's a kick in the balls for the Coalition.

Wow. That really hits home. My current assigment is to train the Reserve Component. Sheez, I wonder what that units Active Component guys feel like after seeing this? Probably not good for their moral either.

<font color="#C4C1CA">These are *not* random acts. There are many of us on these boards who have been pointing to similar humiliations, random punishments and unfair treatment at the hands of the US forces FOR MONTHS. It was not long ago when I posted this article, where a Senior british army officer stated:</font>
"My view and the view of the British chain of command is that the Americans' use of violence is not proportionate and is over-responsive to the threat they are facing. They don't see the Iraqi people the way we see them. They view them as <u>*untermenschen</u>. They are not concerned about the Iraqi loss of life in the way the British are. Their attitude towards the Iraqis is tragic, it's awful."


<font color="#C4C1CA">*untermenschen - literally "sub-human"; the term employed by the nazi's to describe jews, homosexuals etc.</font>

[quote]Originally posted by Rokenn:

Quote:

Actually it is not only that the job as you say draws bad apples, but more that the job creates bad apples. Go read up on the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment. Where people were randomly assigned the role of 'guard' and 'prisoner' and knew it was all not real. Within 5 days the experiment was cut short and ended because things and spiraled down so quickly. As I recall 3 or 4 of the 'prisoners' had emotional breakdowns due to the experience. Even though all participants had been given extensive psychological tests prior to the experiment to make sure there were no bad eggs or fragile personality types. NPR also did a show on this just yesterday which had some good discussion in it about the subject. Here also is a good paper about the experiment and it's fallout (or lack there of)

Very true stuff - I've seen that effect on people in Northern Ireland. The key to avoiding it is fast troop rotation, so that the troops are not there long enough to suffer the effects. Six months was the recommended maximum in a hot zone, and two years for everywhere else.

US troops have been in the hot zone far too long - and the callous disregard for innoncent lives in the tactics ordered by their commanders has only speeded up the need for rotation.

Bush has appeared on Arab TV to attempt to calm the situation. Notably he didn't use the A word or the S word although Rumsfeld used the A word 5 times on his behalf.

Unfortunately Bush's natural facial expression always makes him look as if he's sneering.

[ 05-06-2004, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

This is This is an article about the US Military's investigation into the torture. The British Army's investigation is ongoing.


'Sadistic, wanton, criminal abuse'
By Patrick Sawer, Evening Standard
5 May 2004
American troops guarding prisoners in Iraq today stand accused by an internal US army investigation of a shocking catalogue of " sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses".

The allegations follow the revelation that two Iraqi prisoners have been murdered - by a US soldier and a CIA contractor - and another 10 deaths are still being investigated.

Guards at Abu Ghraib prison have abused detainees in at least 20 different ways, according to the report, including examples of beating, sodomising, photographing them naked and forcing male prisoners to wear women's underwear.

The investigation also found that military police took photographs of naked women detainees and that a male guard was reported to have had sex with a female prisoner.

Details of the report have stunned senior US politicians and are expected to have a devastating effect on public opinion in America and throughout the world at a critical time for the coalition forces in Iraq. The US army has admitted to "a complete breakdown of discipline" in the prison. The abuse, by the 800th Military Police Brigade, was "systematic and illegal" and " intentionally perpetrated". The abuse inflicted on prisoners in the cell block by US Military Intelligence includes:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees.

Threatening detainees with a loaded 9mm pistol.

Pouring cold water on detainees.

Beating prisoners with a broom handle and chair.

Threatening male detainees with rape.

Allowing a military policeman to stitch the wound of a detainee injured when he was slammed against the wall of his cell.

Sodomising a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broomstick.

Using military dogs to frighten detainees: in one case a detainee was bitten.

The abuse of detainees by military police officers includes:


Forcibly arranging detainees in sexually explicit positions for photographing.

Keeping detainees naked for several days.

Forcing male detainees to wear women's underwear.

Forcing groups of detainees to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped.

Writing "I am a rapist" on the leg of a detainee alleged to have raped a 15-year-old fellow detainee.

Forcing a dog strap or chain around a detainee's neck and photographing him with a woman soldier.
Republican Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said: "The prisoner abuse is so disgusting, so degrading, that I think humanity has been hurt broadly."

A US army official said a soldier was convicted by military justice of killing a prisoner by hitting him with a rock, was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service but not jailed. A private contractor who worked for the CIA was found to have committed the other homicide against a prisoner.

The inquiry, led by Major-General Antonio Taguba, was started at the end of January and reported in secret at the beginning of March. Senior US politicians have been briefed over its contents and congressional hearings are expected to start next week.

Military officials have revealed there have been 35 criminal investigations into claims of prisoner abuse and deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan since December

2002. Ten investigations into deaths and 10 into assaults are under way.

The report outlines at least 20 ways in which US guards abused prisoners and is backed by photographs, confessions and sworn witness statements.

It concludes that soldiers have " committed egregious acts and grave breaches of international law".

SPC Sabrina Harman, of 372nd MP Company, stated in her sworn statement about the incident in which a detainee was placed on a box with wires attached to his fingers, toes and penis and a bag over his head "that her job was to keep detainees awake". She said: "Military Intelligence wanted to get them to talk."

The abuses, which took place in one of Saddam Hussein's most notorious prisons, will cause further outrage in the Arab world and provide a propaganda coup for those arguing the US is an army of occupation.

In response, the American authorities in Baghdad have said they would halve the numbers of prisoners being kept at Abu Ghraib prison to 1,900.

A former detainee at the prison, who claims he was hooded and beaten by US guards, said: " The Americans' behaviour to us was unbearable. With that humiliation they brought Saddam back to our lives."

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The bit that jumped out at me was "killing a prisoner by hitting him with a rock........not jailed" ??

I'm sure the president of Iraq is very sorry 'bout how the army of Iraq massacred them contractors <_<