I don't know where you get your information, but as far as i know there's a huge difference between rich and poor here in the Netherlands, and the gap will only widen in the coming years if our economy doesn't show some improvement soon. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm afraid that poverty in 'the developed world' doesn't even come close to true poverty johnnie.

BTW - Cuba had that degree of poverty in 1958 when it was considered to be a developed country.

I'm afraid you are showing that you have little knowledge of the situation in Cuba johnnie. Do some research and come back to us. Show me where it says Cubans only get enough food to sustain them. They have less than us but that doesn't mean they have nothing.

There is far less scope for them to improve their lot but the vast majority have far more than they had under Batista.

Look at the life expectancy in 1958 and now. See that Cuba is comparable to the developed world now and draw a conclusion from that.

Look at the fact that in 1958 only 23% of male Cubans were literate. Adult literacy in Cuba now is 99%, higher than the UK or the USA. What does that tell you?

BTW - Cuba can thank the trade embargo for some of the improvement to their health. Most meat previously had to be imported. Now they eat far more fresh vegatables and fruit

Poverty is poverty Donut, no matter how you look at it. There's people here as well who can't afford a roof over their head. Or have just enough money to eat, but are in deep trouble if they should ever need a pair of new shoes.

It could be worse, i agree. It could be like in some African countries, but it's still poverty. Having just enough so you won't starve, that's poverty imo.

johnny - your post defies belief. 1.2 billion people on this planet have to survive on less than $1 a day! 840 million of the worlds population are malnourised. A roof over their head is way down on their list of priorities.

The definition of poverty is dependent on where you live not on your opinion.

Well, i'm no Cuba expert, i've never been there before, have you ?
What i said is based on whatever newsarticles i get to read about Cuba here, and from documentaries i see on TV. Surely it's not all made up, would it ?

People are still trying to flee from Cuba every single day, Cuban athletes who are competing abroad must be guarded continuously, or they'll sneak away. If they have such high life expectations, then why the hell are they all trying to flee ? Could it be that they are not all that happy with their situation ? Perhaps they're sick and tired of fruit every day, and wanna eat some porkchops for a change ?

So what are you saying ? Poor people here in Holland and in England shouldn't complain ? That their fate could be worse ? I'm sure they'll find that very helpful information. I've been in Chelsea once, i couldn't believe the amount of homeless people i whitnessed there, sleeping on the sidewalks. Are they really better off than someone in Africa who has no food or shelter ? I think they are both screwed. Having no money, food and shelter in England, is just as bad as in Africa imo.

Johnny people are fleeing countries every day, from the poor African or Asian counties to anywhere that can provide a better life, not just Cubans.

A point that as been missed in this interesting discussion so far is, how would Cuba have faired if the US had practiced a policy of engagement over the past 40 years? Would it have won the people over into possibly a mass revolt against Castro?

I don’t like the right wing polices of division and base Darwinism of Australians currant leader, but if we were subjected to the long campaign of petty obstruction or attempted political killing of my country’s leader than I would rather rail against the bully than be seduced by him.

Would it not be better to start to engage the innocent people of Cuba at all levels rather then persecute them for the admittedly evil actions of its leader?

[ 10-13-2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: wellard ]

The voice of reason. Castro is old and likely to die soon. Recently the US trade delegations and businessmen had been travelling to Cuba to set up ties. That was the way to go, winning hearts and minds now, for the time when Castro is gone. That is the long term view.

Allowing (rather than hindering) tourism would be a great step towards these preparations - it would allow the Cubans to have contact with ordinary Americans and allow them to profit from them. Take away the tourists and you take away both their jobs and the chance to learn about the positive aspects of American culture - leaving them with only one visible sign of how democracy works in the US: Camp X-ray.


Then you would have to look at why that is the case when the social security payments in the Netherlands are so generous - chances are that they 'borrowed' themselves into poverty. Walk into any 'poverty' stricken Neighbourhood in Amsterdam and count the satellite dishes - there are more of them than children.

We are, afterall, talking about a country where the unemployed recieve money to go on holiday!

A couple, without children, in the Netherlands is guaranteed a minimum monthly income of 1250 EUR under Dutch social security legislation - on top of this, they are eligible for a whole host of other benefits (like rent subsidy, reduced entry charges to museums, zoos, the theatre etc. etc.).

The unemployed in other countries (like the UK) would consider this a veritable paradise indeed!...

[ 10-13-2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

And how far do you think they'll come with that holliday money ? I know people who are on welfare, and they use that little extra to buy new clothes, which they otherwise can't afford.

Don't make it sound if people in Holland who are on welfare are living in luxury, because it's far from that. I agree that the system is good, maybe a liitle TOO good, because it stimulates certain individuals to take advantage of it, but it's still a very low income. Especially when considering the prices of houses overhere, which are compared with the rest of Europe (except for Scandinavia) ridiculously high.

Well, i'm no Cuba expert, i've never been there before, have you ?
What i said is based on whatever newsarticles i get to read about Cuba here, and from documentaries i see on TV. Surely it's not all made up, would it ?

People are still trying to flee from Cuba every single day, Cuban athletes who are competing abroad must be guarded continuously, or they'll sneak away. If they have such high life expectations, then why the hell are they all trying to flee ? Could it be that they are not all that happy with their situation ? Perhaps they're sick and tired of fruit every day, and wanna eat some porkchops for a change ? [/QUOTE]
I've posted my sources and invited you to do the same. You haven't. You don't have to go to the moon to be an expert and you don't have to be an expert to know what you are talking about.

Cuba doesn't have to be the hellhole you say it is for people to want to go to the US. Whatever happens, whatever form of government they have there will always be more opportunities in the US than in Cuba. Perhaps the flood of Americans to Florida in the past 30 years means that other parts of America are far worse off than Florida.