Regarding the Real Harpers: Yes, I can see going through Bernard. I wouldn't put Elminster in a mod if you paid me to, though...

As for the Lathander peoples... They're not lawful, they're true (neutral) good. That means that they'd be more concerned with the evil of the Cowled Ones than the fact that they're the law of the land.

Wow, er, so people liked my idea?

Good summation, Riftmaker.

Not sure that I agree with your assessment of the Clerics. For one, I agree with Illumina's assessment of the clerics. But also, I do not think that the clerics have to know anything about Irenicus. I think that all they'd really need to know is that Imeon's been kidnapped by the Cowled Wizards. If the Lathanderites have a problem with the CW's, then Imoen's kidnapping should be sufficient justification for them to help the PC, particularly if the PC is going to do a little bit of work for them (i.e. the preliminary tasks before arranging the boat ride to Brynnlaw).

The problem with the Real Harpers is that it would seem to me that their presense in Athkatla would conflict with rogue harper plot. If Jahiera knew that there were "real" Harpers in the city, she could run to them immediately and ask for help with the rogue harpers.

Still, Lathanderites aren't really concerned with much beyond killing undead and promoting good. Besides, there is no indication that the Lathanderites have any quarrel with the CW's (AFAIK), and even if there were, I doubt they would interfere in the CW's jurisdiction. Heck, Athkala probably has laws against that.

I still say Real Harpers are the best bet. Note, I haven't played Jaheira's sub-plot(s) at all, so I don't know the story.

<font color=plum>Well, <font color=yellow>Riftmaker</font>, I have to disagree that the Order and the Lathanderites would refuse to help because they are "Lawful" and the C.W.'s are the "lawful representatives".

I agree it would take exceptional circumstances for them to go against the Cowled Wizards...but the PC brings these circumstances in abundance. First of all, it is no secret that the Cowled Wizards are corrupt. The demand a "license fee" that is nothing more than a transparant bribe. One of their members sends the PC after a Ranger - supposedly for crimes against the C.W.'s. However, once you actually meet Valygar, he explains that his actions were self-defense and that the C.W.'s attacked HIM in an attempt to FORCE him to grant them entry into the Planar Sphere. The C.W.'s make no secret of the fact that they are perfectly happy for the PC to kill Valygar if necessary. So the PC is basically being contracted for a sanctioned murder against a good-aligned character.

Finally, there is the wrongful imprisonment of Imoen herself.

Not to mention the fact that if the PC casts even the most basic and non-threatening spell (such as Stoneskin - which doesn't endanger ANY innocent bystanders), a whole GROUP of C.W.'s will show up and attack the PC and his/her group with full magical force - and they have no concern for any innocents that may get caught in the crossfire.

Upon returning from Umar Hills, the PC could take Valygar to the Order to present his side of the case to them. The PC could then point out that they aren't asking the Order to confront the C.W.'s directly - all they are asking is that the Order provide a way for the PC and his group to travel to Spellhold so that they can investigate the situation and rescue Imoen on their own.

While it IS "unlawful" to support helping a prisoner escape from prison, there is ample cause to believe Imoen was wrongfully imprisoned to begin with...and the C.W.'s don't have any "parole board" for her or the PC to appeal to. In this case, the Order would almost be "honor bound" to help if they could - without violating the laws of Athkatla.

But even so, it is quite evident that they would be serving the "greater good" by aiding the PC in this particular instance.

Note that I'm not saying the Paladins will automatically believe the PC. They would have to meet several requirements. For starters, the PC (and most of the group) would HAVE to be of good alignment. Second, they would have to take Valygar to present his evidence of the C.W.'s corrupt and malicous nature. And it would be stressed that any "aid" they give will be strictly "behind the scenes".</font>

The desire for a Good-aligned path through Chapter 3 is anything but new, it's been around since the first Paladin got frustrated at being made to choose between Thieves and Vampires. The ins and outs of the various groups that might help you (some part of the original game, some discussed in this thread and earlier, some decanted from my own little demented head) are as follows:

Shadow Thieves: Irenicus betrayed them in some fashion, they want him dead. Bodhi's declared war on them, they want her dead too. Might as well get a professional adventurer (who in all likelihood has their own beef with Irenicus, and wants to go to Spellhold anyway) to rub both of them out.

Bodhi: Why she's playing for piddling stakes like the Athkatla underworld, when the real prize at stake here is the soul of a Bhaalspawn, is beyond me. But yeah, she has to make sure the PC gets to Spellhold safe and sound, so she'll help you, all right. But she'll get her money's worth out of you first.

Cowled Wizards: The key here is recognizing that the Cowled order is currently undergoing a MAJOR schism in their ranks, with a majority of younger, Neutral Evil types nabbing power from the established Lawful Neutral leaders. Hence the shift from the 'true' CWs ("Okay, you passed the intelligence test, the psychoanalysis, and the marksmanship trials, welcome to the ranks of responsible spellcasters,") to the 'new' CWs ("We don't give a flying fart who gets Fireballed in the Government District, as long as we can extort a hefty bribe from everyone"). Therefore, the path to Spellhold through the CWs involves choosing a side, destroying the opposition, then opening and clearing out the Planar Sphere. For this service, the CWs will Dimension door you right to Byrnnlaw, and help you get this Irenicus--who they have just learned has escaped--under control once again.

Harpers: To avoid Jaheira difficulties, these quests must be completely independent of her, and also be over rather quickly. They have long suspected that the Copper Coronet was harboring slave activity, and last week they got confirmation from their plant there (Bernard). They want you to bust up the slave business there, and track down where the slaves are coming from. On Captain Heagan's corpse is a register of delivered slaves, which also mentions the Guarded Compound in the Temple District. Upon reporting this to Berinvar (who runs the Galvarey Estate when Galvarey's not around), you are instructed to attack the Guarded Compound and capture or kill the Slave Lords there.

Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart: Will not help you. While it is true that the Cowls show no inclination towards Good, and it seems that every third-class group of Bandits has purchased a license (and can therefore do pretty much whatever they want), the Cowled Wizards are a perfectly legitimate organization supported in every level of Amnish government. The only reason they might aid you is your claim that Imoen was unaware of the spellcasting ban, and was likely deported without a trial. This might give the Order cause to investigate the location of this Asylum for the Magically Deviant, but they won't provide material assistance towards getting you there.

Major Athkatla Churches: Also will not help you. Lathander has no beef against a Neutral organization that has nothing to do with Undead (although individual Clerics might take a stand against Spellhold, as it represents stagnation), Helm would be against the Cowls only as far as the way they might treat spellcasters unfairly (making the Temple of Helm take roughly the same line as the Order of the Radiant Heart), and Talos gets along with the Cowls just fine. Besides, as Clerics, what do they care about Wizards having to pay money in order to cast spells?

Zhentarim: A few moments after Xzar is assassinated, a Monk named Lafcadio comes up to you and says he has an interesting and profitable job for you--but he won't tell you what it is if Jaheira is nearby. If you wish, you can accompany him back to Prebek's home, where he asks you to re-enter the Harper Hold and bring back the real Montaron this time. You have the option of either
A) Killing him right off,
B) Telling the Harpers about him, or
C) accepting his quest.
If you take C, Lafcadio introduces you to a Sorceress named Hexerei, and you all go stand outside the Harper Hold. At this point, Jaheira demands to know what is going on, and it is impossible to keep her in the party any further if you wish to continue (she goes to her usual location, outside the door to the Galvarey Estate). Hexerei casts Mass Dimension Door, taking herself and the entire party to the roof of the Harper Hold. From here, you descend to the 2nd floor (killing the Spectral Harpists if necessary), retrieve Montaron's body, and take it back to Hexerei. She Mass Dimension Doors you back down to ground level, and a party of hostile Cowled Enforcers appear. Thanks to his Magic Resistance and quick running speed, Lafcadio lures the Wizards away, leaving you and Hexerei with Montaron. She casts a powerful form of Negative Plane Protection on him, so that during the next hour, a simple Raise dead should bring him back to live. She tells you to go get him Raised, and bring him to Prebek's home when you're done. She then runs off, to avoid summoning any more Cowls. You bring Monty back to life at the Temple of Oghma, and then Lafcadio says he has some more jobs for you: While Montaron is helping steal a valuable artifact from the Order of the Radiant Heart (good luck getting Keldorn to go along with this), you are asked to weaken the Harpers from within, by recruiting Jaheira and planting the Shazellim scimitar on her, then framing her for some unsavory crime. Once this task is completed (leaving Jaheira dead), Lafcadio wants you to investigate the Graveyard District: It seems that a powerful sword, called Namarra, has been entombed there--it once belonged to the Zhentarim, and they'd like to have it back. Your final task is to stage a direct assault on the Galverey Estate and kill everyone in it.

Wizard Slayers' Guild: You can start on this path by talking to Hoskins, a rather angry man who appears just as you leave Irenicus's dungeon. He is furious about the amount of damage done to Waukeen's Promenade, and starts to blame the PC for contributing to it--when you calm him down, he admits it was all Irenicus's fault--even the girl that the Cowls took away hardly did anything. You can press him on this, and he will admit that he's hated wizards ever since one killed his wife....and he'll suggest that if you really want to get back at Irenicus, you should speak to a man named Lord Ketlaar Argrim, in the Council of Six building in the Government District. Argrim will test you first, and then tell you about a secret door, concealed inside a building in the Goverment District; the one near the SW corner of the map, with a man's face on either side of the door. Now that he's told you where to look for the door, you can enter the Wizard Slayers' Guild. Except for the anteroom, all areas inside the Guild are Dead Magic Zones. The WSG is willing to discover the location of the Asylum if you help to break the stranglehold that the Cowled Wizard have on the city: The very WORST people to judge competent spellcasting would be fellow spellcasters. It is the Wizard Slayers, not the Cowls, who should be patrolling Athkatla. To this end, they want you to do everything you can to contain and/or destroy dangerous spellcasters. Your first mission is to investigate the goings-on in Waukeen's Promenade: They've heard something about a mysterious and quite probably deadly transformation of a circus there. Next is to bait out the Cowled Wizards, and kill them. Lastly, you are ordered to find some way of getting the Planar Sphere back where it came from--or at least out of Athkatla. Since this might well mean taking it to another Plane, and you'd really rather not get stuck there, the WSG gives you a powerful homing artifact that can transport you from plane to plane--but not from one point to another within planes. (This device can also bring the Solamnic Knights along, if you use it in the right place.)

See, I told you I was right about the churches. Yeesh.

Also, the Imprisonment of Imoen IS LAWFUL. It is against the law to use wizard's magic in Athkala without a 'liscence'. She broke that law, she was punished, along with Jonny.

As to why Bodhi is kicking around in Athkala is probably because Jonny wanted her to. Being his lackey and all.

<font color=plum>But does she actually cast any spells at Irenicus before the Cowled Wizards show up? I always got the impression that Johnny attacked her as soon as she came out, and HIS magic was so powerful it was like a [img]graemlins/alarm.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/alarm.gif[/img] <font color=red>4-ALARM</font> [img]graemlins/alarm.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/alarm.gif[/img] bell at the C.W. HQ. So they show up, see two mages in a "battle" and grab both of them without asking any questions. At the "trial", Imoen isn't given much of a chance to give her side of the story.

Still, I'll concede that her arrest IS "Lawful" if she cast any spells in defense against Johnny.

<font color=silver>SixOfSpades</font> - Thanks for the rundown on the various paths that had been discussed previously. I personally like the idea of the Wizard Slayer group the best - but then I'm partial to that kit anyway. Still, it makes a LOT more sense that a group of Wizard Slayers would want to see the C.W.'s removed from power. Are there any Mods out there that actually explore or develop these various alternatives?</font>

She casts a Magic Missile spell. Then the CWs show up.

Yeah, its goes something like...

Irenicus: "You can't leave, not when im so close to unlocking your power!"
Imoen: "We dont want anything from you" *casts magic missile*

*Cowled Wizards teleport in*

Or something to that effect


--Kestrel--

[ 12-05-2004, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Kestrel Daystar ]