Paladin Took, Pippin's father, as well?

I wonder if Denethor had beheld the Fleet of Umbar sailing to Gondor to destroy Minas Tirith alongside the hosts of Mordor - and saw his old rival Thorongil at the head of the fleet?

It puts a new light on his despair. Was his madness truly due to regret at his failure to defend Gondor, or the knowledge that he was to be deposed by that man?

Denethor's madness was caused by one of the same ancient artifacts that aided Saruman's treachery. The Palantir. I don't think sane Denethor would have been loath to give up his title to Aragorn. There's a bit in the story where Faramir is explaining a conversation to Frodo that occured between Denethor and Boromir. Something along the lines of 'ten thousand years is not long enough to appoint a new king' or something. I'm sure someone can fill me in.

That's right. Boromir asked his father 'How many hundreds of years does it take for a Steward to become King?'
Denethor's reply was something along the lines of 'In places of less royalty than Gondor, not many. In Gondor, ten thousand years will not suffice.' Or words to that effect.

As for sane Denethor, you're right again; Denethor would have surrendered his charge willingly. It was the sight of Mordor's armies that broke Denethor, though; the realisation that there was no hope - and, also, bear in mind that Denethor has never seen Aragorn under that name, and knows him only as Thorongil. He knew that a King was coming, but didn't realise it was his old rival... I wondered if that wouldn't stir things a bit within his mind. To fail in his duty of keeping Gondor for the King, and to have 'Thorongil' fight against him (as it might have seemed) might just have added to the cruelty of it.

[ 01-23-2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Tancred ]