People are not egocentric. All they believe I think (well me anyway) is that God created us. God also created animals. I didn't say anything about us being special, all I'm saying is that we're not insignificat. We are precisely more significant to God because we can understand the concept of God etc.

I think there has to be a purpose otherwise we might as well be dead or not have ever existed. By definition: purpose is a reason to exist. If you don't have one, why exist? That's just my opinion.

I'm not sure about my point of view on heaven. If we take the Biblically accepted argument it's that no matter how good you are you cannot go to heaven(unless you believe) because the only route is through belief. Therefore if a criminal DOES truly believe and does TRULY repent in his mind, he is thereafter clean and there is no reason not to go into heaven. If we accept God, we know he can see into your heart. We might not be able to forgive a criminal just cos he's truly sorry, but we are not as great at forgiving or in any way as God (if u accept him). If you don't accept/believe in him then why are you worrying about heavan?

The knights templar etc. interpreted the Old Testament which teaches eye for an eye. Where they contradict the New Testament always supercededs the old. The New Testamant teaches love your neighbour. Therefore the Knights Templar were wrong to fight in the name of religion.

True 1 billion people can be misled by TV and science but you cannot make them feel anything as so many people have kindly pointed out. [img]smile.gif[/img] Therefore can you really mislead 1 billion people into FEELING and KNOWING the existance of a God. I don't think so [img]smile.gif[/img]

You are right that need might develop as a consequence of your environment. By YOUR argument you can say that God is part of our environment therefore God exists. Hehe.

I have already answered the question in your last paragraph. If Saddam Hussein repents in his heart and only God and he can know this and accepts God etc. then there is no reason not to go to heavan. As I said, if you worry about heaven/believe in it, you have to have some belief in the first place so then believe that God/Jesus is the only path to heavan. Therefore how can someone who doesn't believe in the path i.e. doesn't see the path - how can someone like that walk the path that they don't believe exists, no matter how good they are?

epona my boss and one of my best mates is muslim, hes used allah and god in the same sentence before and when talking to other muslims with me around, he also speaks moroccan and arabic and obviously then hes using allah.

basically im just saying, it totally varies depending on the individual, yet again in tv and film muslims normally talk about allah and not god, and even in subtitling if they say allah, its translated as ... allah [img]smile.gif[/img] i dont think anyone really knows which to put, in my opinion allah now has become a word in its own right in the english language, if you worship allah your automatically a muslim now, that seems to be the way its gone

Everyone returning to the thread since yesterday (or 12 hours ago for some people :D ) then please check my bloody long thread near bottom of page 3 which atttempts to address all issues mentioned in the first 3 pages. Then you'll understand where the thread is at now.

Do you ask yourself this question when a squirrel, a dog or a tree dies ? Do they have an ultimate purpose in life ? Do they go to this "better place" ?

Most of religious people would say : eh of course not !

Though you see, we re just some evolved squirrels.

We're just a form of life that came out from million years of evolution. Our brain evolved, changed and we don't work only by instinct anymore. Though we're not that different from any other form of life of this damn planet.

I'm not really an atheist. I believe that something created life (maybe cause I have no better explanation). But religions...no thanks...created by men to control other men obviously.

Anyway, next time if you can, watch a dog (or a squirrel) moving, running, breathing, eating, being happy, being mad, being mean...watch the dog and see how precious and magic life is.

Then when he dies, all the metaphysical questions you have about life and god, try to apply them to him. What happened to this particular life ?

Who knows really.

[ 01-22-2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Masklinn ]

Do you ask yourself this question when a squirrel, a dog or a tree dies ? Do they have an ultimate purpose in life ? Do they go to this "better place" ?

Most of religious people would : eh of course not !

Though you see, we re just some evolved squirrels.

We're just a form of life that came out from million years of evolution. Our brain evolved, changed and we don't work only by instinct anymore. Though we're not that different from any other form of life of this damn planet.

I'm not really an atheist. I believe that something created life (maybe cause I have no better explanation). But religions...no thanks...created by men to control other men obviously.

Anyway, next time if you can, watch a dog (or a squirrel) moving, running, breathing, eating, being happy, being mad, being mean...watch the dog and see how precious and magic life is.

Then when he dies, all the metaphysical questions you have about life and god, try to apply them to him. What happened to this particular life ?

Who knows really.</font>[/QUOTE]Nice post. I agree that we're just evolved animals. However the important point is that we did evolve into something that can understand the concept of God. Animals din't. THat's the different between us and that's why sentient beings are special.

Everyone returning to the thread since yesterday (or 12 hours ago for some people [Big Grin] ) then please check my bloody long thread near bottom of page 3 which atttempts to address all issues mentioned in the first 3 pages. Then you'll understand where the thread is at now.

[ 01-22-2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

Well, we just have the power of abstraction. We can imagin things. But it's maybe just a matter about how our brain evolved.

Or maybe not [img]smile.gif[/img]

Did you read my long post on page 3?

I did Vaskez. It's a nice post and I agree to most of it.

Why do you ask ? :D

Dunno, I just thought that you hadn't read it based on what you said. I thought I had covered your question but I guess I hadn't :D

but vaskez i exist with a purpose, my purpose is to enjoy life, nice n simple [img]smile.gif[/img] its nothing to do with religion though.

and im not worrying about heaven im asking you questions from a point of view of faith, as i dont believe its a moot point for me, but im interested to know what people think, because i do have opinions on most religions which i dont share but i like to ask and find out.

your saying god exists, therefore heaven exists therefore EVERYONE is judged? isnt that what you and all christians say? its not just christians who are judged its EVERYONE therefore im included so is saddam and any other example, therefore although they dont follow that path they can still end up there if it did exist surely? and then its very important whether someone good gets in or someone who is bad but believes....

and yes you can mislead people into feeling something, hindus all feel the same way yet they believe in a multitude of gods, whereas the christian god said he is the ONLY one, so you got millions on both sides, both feeling it, one MUST therefore be misled....

yep masklinn that was my point earlier, who has the right to say a squirrel doesnt have a soul, doesnt believe in something, and wont enter "a better place" in the afterlife, esp as we all share the same past. When people talk about religion its only humans who are considered, im sure theres other lifeforms in the universe (i believe it to be small minded and egocentric to believe there arent) and they have their own beliefs, then things start to get really complicated [img]smile.gif[/img] i cannot wait for space travel and an official first contact, because that will really get the forums jumping [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Vaskez posted (in response to grungi: Exactly! The reason someone can't 'get to heaven' or be saved if they refuse to accept God is simple enough! If you don't believe and accept God, he can't exactly take you in. That's the one sure way NOT to be saved is to not WANT to be (by not believing in God). Vaskez, your whole thread is a fascinating one and I'm incredibly impressed by your posts! They're thoughtful, insightful and very obviously you've contemplated this whole concept alot! Kudos! And God Bless!

Grungi - God says everyone is judged - if you believe this then believe what else he says: only through him can you get to heaven. Therefore no not everyone can get there just by being good, as I have explained above.

Hindu gods are all forms of one god I think. If am mistaken then the case is that they still have one overall, "leader" God. All in all it's still monotheism IMO. Christians also have 3 things that make up God. Holy spirit, father, son etc. Now I don't know enough about Hinduism to say that it's like this with their "many" gods as well but like I said I'd be willing to say that they still have many forms of one supreme being or many minor gods but sill one supreme being. Anyway, you have to take into account the difference between muslim/hindu and Christian religions. In modern times in the first 2 I guess you are still pressured into being a muslim etc by society if you live in a muslim country. It's the only way to be accepted. Christians on the other hand are almost believing in SPITE of society. Therefore they are not misled. My argument about not thinking that 1 billion Christians can be misled (see long post on page 3 and above) is therefore valid IMO.

And hey, I believe in other forms of life on other planets as well. There's nothing AFAIK in the Bible to say there isn't. There's nothing that says we are unique, only that we are special. We can be special along with any other beings capable of understanding the concept of God in the universe. There could well be other such beings out there, I haven't read enough of the Bible to know if it mentions them at all or not.

[ 01-22-2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

OMG!!!! This thread has grown exponentially in less than one day???

I can't even begin to jump in. Busy now. Mayhap later I'll dig up one of my previous treatises on being an atheist and why it is the only logical and ethical thing to be. :D

But, the first post bothers me: it makes the assumption an atheist would choose based on selfishness - ridiculous.

Me, I like knowing I am food for worms. It means I'll make sure and do things right my one time around. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Well a squirrel mind is limited. Not sure he can believe in anything. That was not really the meaning of my post. Was more about how life is great and important in all its different form and that we usually DONT worry about what happens when the squirrel dies. And maybe we should start there.

And Vaskez, yes i agreed with your post and it covered some of the thoughts I had about this thread, though I wanted to post my own opinions and not just "What Vaskez said". :D

And about your famous post on page 3, there is something that I want to talk about :

"Even scientists admit that just for the atoms to come together to form life the chance is like 10^-31 "

/sarcasm on
Yeah, and I, as a scientist admit that just for me to win the lottery the chance is 1 on 2 : I win or I don't. :D
/sarcasm off

You should have said : Even scientists admit that just for the atoms to come together to form THIS PARTICULAR life WE KNOW, the chance is like 10^-31.

Who knows if some of the other configuration wouldnt have made some kind of life too ?

Playing with numbers and chances can be so tricky [img]smile.gif[/img]

Exactly! The reason someone can't 'get to heaven' or be saved if they refuse to accept God is simple enough! If you don't believe and accept God, he can't exactly take you in. That's the one sure way NOT to be saved is to not WANT to be (by not believing in God). Vaskez, your whole thread is a fascinating one and I'm incredibly impressed by your posts! They're thoughtful, insightful and very obviously you've contemplated this whole concept alot! Kudos! And God Bless!</font>[/QUOTE]Ah, I must be high or somethin. Don't worry I'll be back to my cheerful sarcastic self tomorrow ;) :D :D

hmmmm sorry about all the typos everyone, they're bound to happen in long posts and I can't be bothered to edit them

---------------------------------------------
| |
| What does happen when the squirrel dies ? |
| |
---------------------------------------------

(That will be the title of my new book)

<font color="plum">Whew! Where to begin? So many topics, points, and counterpoints - far too many to address individually.

<font color="yellow">Melusine</font> - I have waited this long to join the thread because of the pattern it was following. I was truly impressed with all the responses on the 1st page. They were honost answers to the questions put forth by <font color="red">Vaskez</font> and - for once - avoided the recurring cycle of harsh criticisms and defensive responses that these threads usually generate. Then <font color="yellow">Yorick</font> and <font color="orange">Dagorian</font> began debating the issue of wars caused by religions. I'm sorry guys, but these arguments have been hashed and rehashed and they also didn't address the questions or the main topic of this thread.

I'm glad to see it heading back to main focus <font color="red">Vaskez</font> originally intended.

Now for my own response to the topic at hand.

Why I believe in God

I believe in God because I have personally felt His presence in my life in various situations. I was raised in a Christian home, so I always "believed" in God...but I didn't really become a Christian until I accepted God on my own initiative and for my own reasons. Up until that time, I had just been "going through the motions". My belief in God is not in response to my being "unable to accept the fact that there is no real purpose for us being here". I do not need answers to "unanswerable questions". I just realized one night in church that I had never actually committed my life to Jesus and that I needed to do that if I were going to continue calling myself a Christian.

The Bible says that "a peace which surpasseth all understanding" will come over you when you turn your troubles over to God. I can vouch 100% for that...I have felt this inexplicable peace on many different occasions when I faced circumstances in my life that were simply beyond my ability to control. When I tried to control the circumstances on my own, my stress levels rose through the roof and the situation only got worse. When I finally went to God in prayer and said "I cannot handle this. I turn it over to you" - I immediately felt a wave of calm come over me and I had a feeling of assurance that everything would work out OK. And it always has - even though it didn't always work out the way I had wanted it too. In the end, God's solution was far better than anything I could have done on my own.

I believe in God because of an ongoing relationship I have with Him through Jesus Christ. My faith is not based on the Bible, it is based on the real events in my life that have been influenced by the presence of God in my life. I do believe the Bible is the Word of God. All of the things I've experienced are also documented in the Bible and follow the same experiences other Christians have had. I have never found any part of the Bible to be false, in my personal experience. The Bible documented what would I happen if I would accept God and Jesus Christ on faith. I tried it and it happened exactly like the Bible said it would. Therefore, I trust what the Bible says about any other issues or questions I have. However, my faith is still based on my personal relationship with God and not "because the Bible says so". Those who claim to believe the Bible, but don't have an ongoing relationship with God, are the ones who feel it is "God's Will" to bomb abortion clinics or kill thier neighbor for having a different belief.

I have heard atheists call the Bible "nothing more than a collection of fables and fairy tales". That is actually a very accurate description for someone who doesn't have the Holy Spirit of God within them to help them understand the messages and symbolism the various stories represent. The best way for me to explain it is to say that I always "believed" the stories of the Bible while growing up...but I didn't truly "understand" them until after my Salvation.

Speaking of which, <font color="yellow">Melusine</font> mentioned the fact that I believe a heinous criminal can be forgiven of their sins and enter Heaven while a "goodly person" can be barred from Heaven because they didn't accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. Technically, that is correct. The Bible does say that "good works alone" are not enough to make it into Heaven. But this applies more to the "Sunday Christians" who think that - as long as they go to church and act nice to people - they are "good to go". And that just isn't the way it works. When a person truly accepts Jesus Christ as thier Savior, the Holy Spirit will enter into their heart and transform them. They will be a changed person and act in a manner more closely attuned to God's Will. Many people who consider themselves Christians, never actually make this "full time commitment" to God. It is these people that the Bible is addressing.

Can a person that lives a "good life", but does not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior get into Heaven? That's a tricky question. Certainly by human standards, that person "deserves" to have a wonderful after-life - but we humans aren't the ones who get to choose who goes and who doesn't. Only God can do that. And God does judge the HEART of a person, not their head. These discussions have led me to "expand" my view a bit. Our souls enter Heaven by Grace alone. NOTHING we do on Earth can EARN us the right to be in Heaven...all we can do is trust in the Grace and Mercy of God and Jesus Christ. For most Christians, this means accepting the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross as an atonement for our sins. We are still getting into Heaven by Grace, it is the Grace of Jesus Christs Love. But a person can also enter Heaven through the Grace of God Himself. The thief on the cross was not able to accept Jesus as his Savior, but he still entered Heaven because of the Grace granted by God.

So, yes, a "good hearted person" could enter Heaven - if God allowed it.</font>

erm its not simple, your basically saying then cloudbringer that im not judged when i die? so what happens to me as i dont believe? in your belief im going to hell then?

and vaskez your saying i am judged but i dont get there anyway? so where do i go? hell? im a good person living my life in a good way and this good god of yours is going to say basically "fck him, eternity of hell for that boy because he didnt believe in me" yeah right, if he was a god like that then he'd be a pretty nasty god, esp as hes condemning half of humanity to eternal damnation, do you REALLY believe your god is that callous?

Vaskez if you think hindus are monotheistic, then ROFL why would they even invent that word? its not possible therefore to have more than one god as you will just end up saying that they are both really the same god, so there is no such word as monotheistic because its a given? Of course they arent, hindus believe in a multitude of gods not in a single god, therefore they cannot be worshipping the same christian god as he decreed that noone should worship false idols or other gods which hindus do, they are mutually exclusive.

and im still not going with the "if 1 billion people say it, it must be right" that argument doesnt stand up, otherwise everyone else would believe it straight away, and they dont, were human and we believe what we want to believe, anyhows i dont think theres a billion christians in the world its a lot less than that. As for being pressured into it, i was pressured into christianity and i know alot of communities where that happens still, thankfully these days we have the option to say no to it as i did when iw as very young, i was disgusted that i was forced to go to church and i still am, i think religion is a choice and its totally out of order to force someone to believe something that they just dont. All religions do that to some extent, christianity, muslim etc, none of that makes a difference to whether that religion is right or not, that can only be proved by the appearence of god, and even then i suspect people wont believe, id be highly suspicious i must admit.

Would be nice to have a hindu and muslim point of view on this thread as well, as i think they'd have some strong views to share.

God is Love and every Men are his children.

Therefor...everyone one should have access to heaven.
Can you imagin God refusing someone, knowing that He is Love ? :(

There are so much flaws :(

aha thank you cerek [img]smile.gif[/img] thats my point too, IF it all existed then a good hearted person could get into heaven even without believing in god because god wills it, in which case the things god is supposed to have said before dont really count because thats not in keeping with his character.

Though i dont believe in god the way i see him portrayed is compasionate and the ultimate good to the point where he cares about every single blade of grass or living organism, i believe again IF heaven etc all existed that he would look at each creature, say are you reedemable? if so then your in, if not then hell, but to be unreedemable you'd have to have one evil soul.

But cloudbringer and vaskez from what i can see are saying because i dont believe in god then i dont get into heaven despite a relatively good life so far, which means my other option is hell, i cannot believe the god that they look up to so much would condemn me to hell so easily just because i dont believe.

Now its interesting that cerek believes what i believe (assuming i believed in religion) but vaskez and cloudbringer dont, yet all 3 are christians.

anyhows good post as usual cerek [img]smile.gif[/img]

Fair enough Vasky, but can I then conclude you'd rather have people "believe in God" for whatever reason they can think up, even if it's such a selfish one? Rather that than have them be true to themselves?
If someone really cannot find a ground for faith in their hearts, like Epona for instance, they cannot force one out of "logical" reasoning like: Hell, I have nothing to lose and everything to gain, why shouldn't I believe in God??
I just don't think it works that way. Faith has to be a logical conclusion to all you feel... you cannot just decide it, ESPECIALLY if you can find no other reasons to believe than *insert your first post*.
The reason you mention, IMO, is just not a solid basis for true Faith as far as I can tell.

Read my "famous" post on page 3 :D The really long one. That'll save you reading through the first 3 pages as from it you can get what others said and how I am responding.
Where have I said anything about selfishness? I didn't mean to imply anything like that.

<font size=12>ANYWAY MY BOTTOM LINE IS </font>

Based on all the arguments in my "famous" :D long post near the bottom of page 3 as well as feelings and some others I haven't mentioned, I cannot see why people don't believe in a god. Maybe I'm just thick-headed? :D

Therefore ASSUMING none of page 3 stuff convinces you, (we've been over that stuff before in other threads that's why I didn't start with that) I posed the question on page 1: ok so what about the nothing to lose thing? That is why I am so confused about people. There's all the for-arguments (IMO much more for than against arguments exist, even this thread contains more for arguments) plus the better odds if you're just a gambler and DESPITE all that people cannot believe.

Confusing for me like you know the situations where something seems so obvious to you yet others don't see it at all and you can't see why they can't see it as it seems perfectly logical? Hehe...

[ 01-22-2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

Fair enough Vasky, but can I then conclude you'd rather have people "believe in God" for whatever reason they can think up, even if it's such a selfish one? Rather that than have them be true to themselves?
If someone really cannot find a ground for faith in their hearts, like Epona for instance, they cannot force one out of "logical" reasoning like: Hell, I have nothing to lose and everything to gain, why shouldn't I believe in God??
I just don't think it works that way. Faith has to be a logical conclusion to all you feel... you cannot just decide it, ESPECIALLY if you can find no other reasons to believe than *insert your first post*.
The reason you mention, IMO, is just not a solid basis for true Faith as far as I can tell.</font>[/QUOTE]Of course *post on page 1* is not a solid basis. :D It's supposed to be a thought provoker I guess I should be more clear. However I think argument on *post on page 3* are a good basis. I don't believe in blind faith. Well maybe a tiny bit of it, just cos of the better odds, you know? :D

[ 01-22-2003, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

the situation was explained repeatedly though vaskez, simply its hypocritical to try and believe in something that you simply dont, and if as you say god exists then he can see into your heart and know you dont believe, so theres no point even pretending.

seems pretty simple to me, you cannot make your feelings up, if you dont believe, you dont believe and almost nothing will change that. So if you are judged by god, you cant do a sudden turnaround and say "oh yes i fully believe in you and bath in your glory, blah blah" hes god for godssake [img]tongue.gif[/img] he'd know in a second and then by your own standards you'd be condemned to hell. Thats why people dont even pretend to believe just so they get into heaven on the offchance that when they die it will exist

Agreed. I was just provoking thought and trying to get answers to let me understand people better.

I would think this is true. If my pastors were right, and I live the good life, and St. Peter refuses me because I didn't do the paperwork - then I don't want to be there anyway. I spend my whole life filling out forms to get things done - if heaven is that way you can keep it. The diety, should it exist, is either benevolent or simply not worth my while.

Hmmm just saw some posts at bottom of page 4:

Cerek - Nice post [img]smile.gif[/img]

Grungi - Don't ROFL at me you cheeky git [img]tongue.gif[/img] I already said that I'm not sure about Hinduism, however are YOU sure that there is no one God above all in their faith? i.e. they have loads of gods but one is more powerful than the other. Can they all be equally powerful? Even the ancient greeks (or was it romans? Always forget :D ) had Zeus as the king of gods even though there were loads of gods. Therefore what I am saying is in a way Zeus can be seen as THE God as he is the leader. That's just an analogy though to explain why I said what I did about Hindus. Go and ROFL at someone else [img]tongue.gif[/img]

oh, thought you were still asking the question for enlightenment [img]tongue.gif[/img] , i dunno you scummers eh ;) (to anyone not from southampton or portsmouth ignore that) oh and vaskez you are from southampton arent you? epona said, but i dont know how he knows [img]tongue.gif[/img] so im assuming you are, and know what i mean by scummer [img]tongue.gif[/img]

anyhows well least now you know why people who dont believe see little point in pretending they do, like myself, i personally feel i get far more respect from someone religious for being goodhearted, honest and generally a nice person than if i followed their religion, all the religious people i know and have met RL do respect me more for that, they dont care what religion i am because im a nice person (95 percent of the time [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) and i feel if a god existed he too would respect me far more for that and care about that than me not believing in him

Though id like to throw something else into this discussion, i been using he for god all the time, one reason i dont think much of religion is its always about the male in charge, which at the time religions were formed was the case, the male was always in charge, so god becomes male, thats human intepretation yet again, it says to me men made the whole concept of religion up not some higher power, because if there really was a god why would he be male? and why was jesus a man (and have a beard [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) i cant think of a religion off hand where the main god is female, anyone else know? Anyhows thought id just bring that up [img]smile.gif[/img]

Okay, Vaskez, read your long post. Still I do not waver.

There is a human immortal soul. It is the teleological story of the species-being's growth, maturation, and existence over time. I am very spiritual. I have a duty to future generations of human beings and a responsibility for my actions that extends beyond the end of my life not because I will get rewarded or punished but rather because it is my little job in the vastness of human history.

However, I see no reason to believe in a God. The universe is eternal - I don't need to dream up some imaginary being and say he/she/it created the universe because that simple begs another question, to wit who made God? I am humbled by the immortality of all that is and do not need to personify it into a "God." That is the worst kind of arrogance for a human to engage in.

I do support organized religion, however, and I have written tomes on this very board regarding that. Put simply, I think I'm smart enough and responsible enough and educated enough try to do the right thing without the "carrot and stick" of religion, but I don't trust all of my fellow humans to be quite so smart, responsible, or educated.

Hey the point here was why don't people believe in God. I wasn't saying you should be a Christian or any particular religion but then I was asked about what I thought about heaven etc. so we got onto the Christian view.

I can see reasons why people may not be Christians what I said was I cannot see why people don't believe in God. I can understand if you have looked into your heart and decided there is no God, I just couldn't understand that despite all the arguments have posted people can be sure and CONTENT in their knowledge that there is no God. I think you are wrong but we'll both find out when we die I guess :D

I'm not sure about the man thing in religions. I guess it's cos the religions all were first practiced in patriarchical societies. The people inspired by God to write the holy books interpreted them in a way that the people then could relate to, i.e. God is a father and there is the son. The holy spirit however has no gender? However it also says that man is created in God's image so I guess then that God must mean for us to interpret that as though he's a man. Maybe it's because males are generally the physically strong sex and were more respected at the time Jesus lived? I have no idea really, just thinking out loud.

wasnt rofling at you vaskez was rofling out loud when i read what you had written as i just find what you said funny, and i think a hindu might well too, in fact as i just started dating a hindu girl atm ill find out from her [img]smile.gif[/img] , & okay if zeus was the one god why would he need the others? he was the king of gods only because the greeks needed a hierachy as at the time they had kings and that probably fitted best for them.

if as you say god is the one god and any other religions with lots of gods basicalyl worship just one god, then why would god say "dont worship false idols and other gods" ? if they all end up being one god ergo him whats he got to worry about?

This is basicly Pascal's Wager. Where Pascal laid out the exact same reasoning you have. Pascal's arguements didn't budge me and I hate to dissappoint you, but yours didn't either [img]smile.gif[/img]

I do not need the fear of eternal punishment to lead a moral and ethical life.

and yes vaskez thats exactly why god was intepreted as a man. Human intepretation of him, for me if god really existed then he would be neither man nor woman, not in the human form at all afterall if he represents all life then i would say he would be something you couldnt really see or understand, maybe at best a star trek type wavey smoke thing, jesus was his human form, holy ghost is his spiritual form, so why is he portrayed as a guy? if god existed he'd have made sure he was an equal being, not an egocentric creation, thats my opinion on it and another reason why i dont believe in god.

<font color="#ffccff">Hate to be a noodge here but...Moral and ethical as judged by what measure? If you don't use God then you use some other subjective and or arbitrary measures. So I am just curious whos measure are you using to judge your reletive morality and ethicalness? </font>

Yeah as I said this thread wasn't about the benefits or drawbacks or religion, only about why people don't believe in a God. Personally I think what IS arrogant is people who think that they know everything they need to know to live well. I have given loads of reasons to believe in a God. Even if you don't agree with them, don't say that you don't see any reason because there are many. I have already answered your question about who made God? That is the oldest argument out there I wish we didn't have to go around in circles. I think that God is the only thing that didn't need anything/one else to create him. That's why he is God i.e. supreme being. You believe what my ex-gf believed - the eternity of the universe itself. She would say - why does anything need to have a beginning and an end? Well that's not good enough to put my mind at rest as atoms don't think and yet we have a wonderfully complex world that even thinking humans can't figure out except in tiny steps.

Interesting post Vaskez although it went somewhat off topic. ;)

In regards to your original post I don´t see why death ("go to a better place")should inspire faith. What do I lose by choosing not to believe in God? If I live a happy life can´t I be content with that? Must I ask for more? Isn´t love of my family and friends enough? In my young life I have been blessed with meeting a man I adore, with two children, and with a family that is always by my side. IMO I don´t need any more than that. I don not belive in the human soul either. Why not? Since today it´s somewhat clear what happens in human development, how thoughts are processed and memory expanded. This is of course not the single reason but an explanation. My hubby told me a quotte from a book he read some time ago and it stuck in my memory. I find it beautiful and it suits my belief I think that in some ways clarifies my expectations of life. As for atheist not believing I totally disagree with you. ;) Don´t they believe? Of course they do, but it is the exact opposite belief. Whereas you choose to believe there is a God, they choose to BELIEVE there is no God.

This paragraph (well half a pragraph) I almost find offensive! Yes I do admit that the bible may be true. Why isn´t it enough for me to live a good moral life anyway? If the bible is true and God created humans, God also gave us the gift of free will and individual thinking. So why should it be stupid to choose not to believe even though what the bible say is true? Did God then make a mistake in giving humans free will? I may have misunderstod your statement, but I will not speak my mind if I have not. ;)

I've never seen that pascal stuff, my thoughts were original to me. Anyway I wish I didn't have to repeat myself but I guess I can't expect people to read this whole thread [img]smile.gif[/img] post on page 1 wasn't meant to be a reason to budge just a reason to make people content with atheism less content and for me to find out some stuff. Arguments on page 3 long post are convincing IMO :D

Well, Vasqez, I simply disagree. A supreme being is simply an answer you latch onto to your inability to fathom eternity. As for going around in circles, sorry I didn't read your complete thesis herein, but I simply can't scan all pages right now.

As for the order of the universe. In an infitely large universe pure mathematics tells you that sooner or later every possible thing will occur.

P.S. Please, if you don't mind, link or post the portion of your argument regarding the "who made god" question.
P.P.S. I am not a gambling man. Like most attorneys (no kidding - it's a statistic), I don't rely on chance any more than I absolutely have to.

[ 01-22-2003, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

YO TL check yer PM's [img]smile.gif[/img] Ill delete this post in a few minutes sorry for the interuption.....Im not an atheist so not qualified to answer the original question [img]smile.gif[/img]

TL as an aside on your post...I don't rely on chance any more than you do [img]smile.gif[/img] I firmly believe the creed, "God helps those who help themselves" meaning, I take care of business and if I need a nudge of luck here and there, thats where god steps in [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>